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	<title>Comments on: Bradley&#039;s Data Archiving</title>
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	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35152</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The answers are nonresponsive.  The question asked for specificity (study by study description of what is archived where).  that would take some work of course.  But that is the answer to the question.  Actually, it would be a really good exercise for a PI to do for his own purposes (to know where his stuff is...)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The answers are nonresponsive.  The question asked for specificity (study by study description of what is archived where).  that would take some work of course.  But that is the answer to the question.  Actually, it would be a really good exercise for a PI to do for his own purposes (to know where his stuff is&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Bell</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35151</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Bell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, - re #15.
                Yes, the Hubble Space Telescope data are archived automatically at the Space Telescope Science Institute. It&#039;s easy to archive, since it is digital and it has been saved at the Institute since the time it was obtained. I think that data is also archived at the big ground-based telescopes but I may be wrong about this.
Roger Bell]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, &#8211; re #15.<br />
                Yes, the Hubble Space Telescope data are archived automatically at the Space Telescope Science Institute. It&#8217;s easy to archive, since it is digital and it has been saved at the Institute since the time it was obtained. I think that data is also archived at the big ground-based telescopes but I may be wrong about this.<br />
Roger Bell</p>
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		<title>By: George Taylor</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35150</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve (#21): &quot;if someone doesn&#039;t want to keep make their code public, then don&#039;t publish articles. Get private funding and don&#039;t publish any articles. But if your data and methods are being used in scientific prospectuses, then you&#039;ve waived any privacy.&quot;

This summarizes it well. My take:

1. the researcher gets first crack at data analysis, with the stipulation that data be archived by the end of the grant
2. permit the researcher to post &quot;messy&quot; data -- not necessarily requiring lots of time to clean it up and thoroughly document it. It can a rather enormous task to do that. But Steve and others have asked for nothing more than working spreadsheets or raw data files, and that seems reasonable, and pretty easy (if one has nothing to hide)
3. there&#039;s a federal metadata standard -- the &quot;FGDC metadata standard&quot; (Federal Geographic Data Committee) that is in use, and software exists that makes it pretty easy to create files describing one&#039;s data set. The metadata files themselves are pretty big and ugly, but nobody needs to create them from scratch. If you had an archived data set, the metadata file would tell the location (lat-long), the parameter measured, the file format, the units, where to find the data, who to contact for questions, etc. Answering questions about data can be a royal pain, and I&#039;d suggest that NSF and others are NOT paying scientists to do that. But if one spends a little time creating good metadata, most questions are automatically answered -- &quot;a stich in time saves nine.&quot;
4. I am bothered by the elitism I see among climate scientists. As a climate scientist myself, I believe that there should be a really &quot;big tent&quot; here, because the presence of people from other disciplines strengthens our field. Look at what Steve and Ross have done: using rigorous statistical and evaluation processes developed in other fields, they have exposed some true weaknesses in climate science, and fundamentally changed the way we look at paleo data -- for the betterment of the science. No one within the field was either (a) capable or (b) willing to do what they did. I tip my hat to you two!

I&#039;ve been working with an electronics engineer (he has some pretty cool signal processing ideas), a civil engineer, geologists, statisticians, Ag Engineering folks ... the synergy you get from multiple viewpoints is quite amazing, and these folks are showing me things in my data sets that I never would have seen on my own (or if I only hung out with climate scientists). So my message to Steve and Ross and others is: welcome to climate science -- I&#039;m glad you came to the party!

&lt;strong&gt;Steve:  &lt;/strong&gt; Thanks. I seem to spend more time on disclosure and due diligence issues right now than anything.  Simply viewing IPCC TAR as a &quot;scientific prospectus&quot; is an approach that would be hard to get to without the particular experience that I&#039;ve had, but it&#039;s a good framework.  Obviously there&#039;s not much experience with international science assessment reports and appropriate standards of disclosure and due diligence, but there&#039;s a lot of experience with standards of disclosure and due diligence for mining promotions and I&#039;ve never heard anyone suggest that IPCC should apply a lower standard than mining promotions. If anything, we hear from learned societies about what a remarkable standard IPCC  sets. I&#039;ve heard a lot of what seemed to me like whining and complaining by skeptics about IPCC. So I simply tried applying the minimum standards of due diligence and disclosure applicable to mining promotions, which are relatively objective and not mere whining,  and tried to see how these things worked. Lots of surprises, that&#039;s for sure.

I&#039;d like do some more mathematical work, showing the application of econometric methods dealing with serial autocorrelation to paleoclimate proxies. I&#039;ve also done some really pretty work on making tree ring site chronologies using statistical methods rather than ad hoc recipes (with the byproduct of better statisitcal control of what you&#039;ve really got in one of these chronologuies). I&#039;d like to do something on confidence interval estimation with proper allowance for autocorrelation, but haven&#039;t figured out how to do it properly.  But I&#039;m so overwhelmed with other pressing stuff that I hardly ever get to it.  I also have some surgery to do on the other multiproxy studies. There&#039;s nothing flashy in these studies.  But people keep throwing these other studies in our faces, so it&#039;s impossible not to respond.  There will be a few more red faces.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve (#21): &quot;if someone doesn&#8217;t want to keep make their code public, then don&#8217;t publish articles. Get private funding and don&#8217;t publish any articles. But if your data and methods are being used in scientific prospectuses, then you&#8217;ve waived any privacy.&quot;</p>
<p>This summarizes it well. My take:</p>
<p>1. the researcher gets first crack at data analysis, with the stipulation that data be archived by the end of the grant<br />
2. permit the researcher to post &quot;messy&quot; data &#8212; not necessarily requiring lots of time to clean it up and thoroughly document it. It can a rather enormous task to do that. But Steve and others have asked for nothing more than working spreadsheets or raw data files, and that seems reasonable, and pretty easy (if one has nothing to hide)<br />
3. there&#8217;s a federal metadata standard &#8212; the &quot;FGDC metadata standard&quot; (Federal Geographic Data Committee) that is in use, and software exists that makes it pretty easy to create files describing one&#8217;s data set. The metadata files themselves are pretty big and ugly, but nobody needs to create them from scratch. If you had an archived data set, the metadata file would tell the location (lat-long), the parameter measured, the file format, the units, where to find the data, who to contact for questions, etc. Answering questions about data can be a royal pain, and I&#8217;d suggest that NSF and others are NOT paying scientists to do that. But if one spends a little time creating good metadata, most questions are automatically answered &#8212; &quot;a stich in time saves nine.&quot;<br />
4. I am bothered by the elitism I see among climate scientists. As a climate scientist myself, I believe that there should be a really &quot;big tent&quot; here, because the presence of people from other disciplines strengthens our field. Look at what Steve and Ross have done: using rigorous statistical and evaluation processes developed in other fields, they have exposed some true weaknesses in climate science, and fundamentally changed the way we look at paleo data &#8212; for the betterment of the science. No one within the field was either (a) capable or (b) willing to do what they did. I tip my hat to you two!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been working with an electronics engineer (he has some pretty cool signal processing ideas), a civil engineer, geologists, statisticians, Ag Engineering folks &#8230; the synergy you get from multiple viewpoints is quite amazing, and these folks are showing me things in my data sets that I never would have seen on my own (or if I only hung out with climate scientists). So my message to Steve and Ross and others is: welcome to climate science &#8212; I&#8217;m glad you came to the party!</p>
<p><strong>Steve:  </strong> Thanks. I seem to spend more time on disclosure and due diligence issues right now than anything.  Simply viewing IPCC TAR as a &#8220;scientific prospectus&#8221; is an approach that would be hard to get to without the particular experience that I&#8217;ve had, but it&#8217;s a good framework.  Obviously there&#8217;s not much experience with international science assessment reports and appropriate standards of disclosure and due diligence, but there&#8217;s a lot of experience with standards of disclosure and due diligence for mining promotions and I&#8217;ve never heard anyone suggest that IPCC should apply a lower standard than mining promotions. If anything, we hear from learned societies about what a remarkable standard IPCC  sets. I&#8217;ve heard a lot of what seemed to me like whining and complaining by skeptics about IPCC. So I simply tried applying the minimum standards of due diligence and disclosure applicable to mining promotions, which are relatively objective and not mere whining,  and tried to see how these things worked. Lots of surprises, that&#8217;s for sure.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like do some more mathematical work, showing the application of econometric methods dealing with serial autocorrelation to paleoclimate proxies. I&#8217;ve also done some really pretty work on making tree ring site chronologies using statistical methods rather than ad hoc recipes (with the byproduct of better statisitcal control of what you&#8217;ve really got in one of these chronologuies). I&#8217;d like to do something on confidence interval estimation with proper allowance for autocorrelation, but haven&#8217;t figured out how to do it properly.  But I&#8217;m so overwhelmed with other pressing stuff that I hardly ever get to it.  I also have some surgery to do on the other multiproxy studies. There&#8217;s nothing flashy in these studies.  But people keep throwing these other studies in our faces, so it&#8217;s impossible not to respond.  There will be a few more red faces.</p>
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		<title>By: fFreddy</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35149</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fFreddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #22
I agree with all this, but with a big flag on &quot;with a broad definition of relevant [data] applied&quot;.
The only acceptable definition is all data observed. Otherwise, there is a risk of a partisan researcher simply excluding all observations that do not fit his thesis.
For example, as a reductio ad absurdam, MBH06 could prove the existence of the hockey stick by redoing their &quot;analysis&quot; based on the bristlecones only.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #22<br />
I agree with all this, but with a big flag on &#8220;with a broad definition of relevant [data] applied&#8221;.<br />
The only acceptable definition is all data observed. Otherwise, there is a risk of a partisan researcher simply excluding all observations that do not fit his thesis.<br />
For example, as a reductio ad absurdam, MBH06 could prove the existence of the hockey stick by redoing their &#8220;analysis&#8221; based on the bristlecones only.</p>
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		<title>By: Armand MacMurray</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Armand MacMurray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #18
Roger, regarding the practical power of a journal editor to compel archiving, the major journals and big generalist journals should be able to compel such w/o much of a problem.  Nature and Science needn&#039;t fear a lack of submissions.  Thus, the past history of Nature in this case is somewhat disturbing.
As for the funding agencies&#039; control over grantees, that&#039;s very simple: without archiving compliance, withdraw eligibility for future grants.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #18<br />
Roger, regarding the practical power of a journal editor to compel archiving, the major journals and big generalist journals should be able to compel such w/o much of a problem.  Nature and Science needn&#8217;t fear a lack of submissions.  Thus, the past history of Nature in this case is somewhat disturbing.<br />
As for the funding agencies&#8217; control over grantees, that&#8217;s very simple: without archiving compliance, withdraw eligibility for future grants.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Snack</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed Snack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there are good grounds for allowing working scientists time to analyse their own data first, and then to have a form of mandatory release after publication, or, for publicly funded work, after a set time if nothing is published. Some form of editting of data is obviously applied, mistakes and data without relevance or otherwise unusable, but generally I suggest the requirement should be for all relevant data, with a broad definition of relevant applied.

I can understand the personal desires of scientists to hold onto data, especially if there is further work being done, but there comes a point where replicability becomes an issue. Also, privately funded researchers have no specific obligation to release data, but unless they do, public policy should never be based on such research.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are good grounds for allowing working scientists time to analyse their own data first, and then to have a form of mandatory release after publication, or, for publicly funded work, after a set time if nothing is published. Some form of editting of data is obviously applied, mistakes and data without relevance or otherwise unusable, but generally I suggest the requirement should be for all relevant data, with a broad definition of relevant applied.</p>
<p>I can understand the personal desires of scientists to hold onto data, especially if there is further work being done, but there comes a point where replicability becomes an issue. Also, privately funded researchers have no specific obligation to release data, but unless they do, public policy should never be based on such research.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35146</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mann&#039;s computer programs are not really &quot;software&quot; in the sense that the programs can be used operationally. They are really more like laboratory notebooks giving a detailed description of methodology.

Secondly, if someone doesn&#039;t want to keep make their code public, then don&#039;t publish articles. Get private funding and do&#039;t publish any articles. But if your data and methods are being used in scientific prospectuses, then you&#039;ve waived any privacy.

Also and this is often neglected, Mann&#039;s verbal descriptions have been proven to be inaccurate. In a business situation, once you&#039;d found problems in one area (whether it was the inaccurate listing of series used or the inaccurate description of the PC method), you would not trust the rest of the verbal descriptions. Why should you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mann&#8217;s computer programs are not really &#8220;software&#8221; in the sense that the programs can be used operationally. They are really more like laboratory notebooks giving a detailed description of methodology.</p>
<p>Secondly, if someone doesn&#8217;t want to keep make their code public, then don&#8217;t publish articles. Get private funding and do&#8217;t publish any articles. But if your data and methods are being used in scientific prospectuses, then you&#8217;ve waived any privacy.</p>
<p>Also and this is often neglected, Mann&#8217;s verbal descriptions have been proven to be inaccurate. In a business situation, once you&#8217;d found problems in one area (whether it was the inaccurate listing of series used or the inaccurate description of the PC method), you would not trust the rest of the verbal descriptions. Why should you?</p>
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		<title>By: SPQR</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35145</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SPQR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35145</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,  I think you&#039;ve found the &quot;Oil For UN Bribes&quot; scandal of the Climate Change cult.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,  I think you&#8217;ve found the &#8220;Oil For UN Bribes&#8221; scandal of the Climate Change cult.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Reid B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reid B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #18 &quot;If someone has spent years developing a program to solve a particular scientific problem, is it reasonable to expect him/her to simply give it to someone else, who wants to do some of the same problems that the program developer wants to do?&quot;

Yes if the scientist is receiving government money.  Scientists want it both ways.  Many claim objective scientific superiority over their peers who are employed in industry because they aren&#039;t tainted by the quest for profit.  But the only reason not to publish all source code is for the scientist to profit.  That profit may come in the form of larger grants and/or academic prestige.

If a scientist wants to keep his source code private they should get private funding.  There should be heavy strings attached to all government grants both to discourage doing science on the backs of taxpayers and to entitle the taxpayer to the use of what they paid for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #18 &quot;If someone has spent years developing a program to solve a particular scientific problem, is it reasonable to expect him/her to simply give it to someone else, who wants to do some of the same problems that the program developer wants to do?&quot;</p>
<p>Yes if the scientist is receiving government money.  Scientists want it both ways.  Many claim objective scientific superiority over their peers who are employed in industry because they aren&#8217;t tainted by the quest for profit.  But the only reason not to publish all source code is for the scientist to profit.  That profit may come in the form of larger grants and/or academic prestige.</p>
<p>If a scientist wants to keep his source code private they should get private funding.  There should be heavy strings attached to all government grants both to discourage doing science on the backs of taxpayers and to entitle the taxpayer to the use of what they paid for.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Bell</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/07/28/bradleys-data-archiving/#comment-35143</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roger Bell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=282#comment-35143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John A,
       The problem is that some scientists aren&#039;t acting like ladies or gentlemen (whichever is appropriate). However, some of the proposed solutions aren&#039;t going to work.
    John A, if you were a journal editor who wouldn&#039;t publish papers until you had the relevant databases/programs in hand, there might be times when your journal had very few papers. You would also be increasing the cost of publishing in your journal because someone, somewhere, has to check that these databases contain the appropriate data. Nobody is being paid to do this right now.
    If you are the funding authority, you have no formal control over where or when your Principal Investigators publish their papers. You are recommending that the country&#039;s best scientists get money to do the science that they think is of the greatest interest. Your only &quot;control&quot; over them comes from the opinion of the referees about their future proposals.
    The only solution to this problem that I see is that NSF/NASA/whoever do start convincing PIs who propose to obtain particular data  that it is in their best interests to promptly archive the data that they have promised to obtain and share any analysis programs when called upon to do so.
    This sharing of programs can be a can of worms as well. If someone has spent years developing a program to solve a particular scientific problem, is it reasonable to expect him/her to simply give it to someone else, who wants to do some of the same problems that the program developer wants to do? Note, however, that I&#039;m not defending Mann&#039;s actions, where the program in question seems relatively simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John A,<br />
       The problem is that some scientists aren&#8217;t acting like ladies or gentlemen (whichever is appropriate). However, some of the proposed solutions aren&#8217;t going to work.<br />
    John A, if you were a journal editor who wouldn&#8217;t publish papers until you had the relevant databases/programs in hand, there might be times when your journal had very few papers. You would also be increasing the cost of publishing in your journal because someone, somewhere, has to check that these databases contain the appropriate data. Nobody is being paid to do this right now.<br />
    If you are the funding authority, you have no formal control over where or when your Principal Investigators publish their papers. You are recommending that the country&#8217;s best scientists get money to do the science that they think is of the greatest interest. Your only &#8220;control&#8221; over them comes from the opinion of the referees about their future proposals.<br />
    The only solution to this problem that I see is that NSF/NASA/whoever do start convincing PIs who propose to obtain particular data  that it is in their best interests to promptly archive the data that they have promised to obtain and share any analysis programs when called upon to do so.<br />
    This sharing of programs can be a can of worms as well. If someone has spent years developing a program to solve a particular scientific problem, is it reasonable to expect him/her to simply give it to someone else, who wants to do some of the same problems that the program developer wants to do? Note, however, that I&#8217;m not defending Mann&#8217;s actions, where the program in question seems relatively simple.</p>
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