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	<title>Comments on: Medieval #6: Whitewing Mt, California</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Tony Brown</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36719</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tony Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 03:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On a separate thread (Steves item on Lamb and the MWP)I posted lots of observations on the authenticated climate of Dartmoor(Southern England) close to my home, which contains habitation from the Bronze period through to the MWP. Basically we still have the buildings and fields and there have been lots of studies into crops grown and the elevations they were grown at.

Both civilisations decamped to the valleys when the climate deteriorated. In the case of the abandonment of the MWP farmsteads in the 1350&#039;s we know the names of the people, what crops were growing and details of converting their barns to take different crops as the cultivation level dropped from around 1500 feet to around 1050 feet. I shall be there tomorrow at Hound Tor (mentioned in Sherlock Holmes adventure Hound of the Baskervilles)where the building walls and the field systems are still clear to see.

Presumably you are after observations of tree line levels rather than crop height levels to pursue your research?

Tony B]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a separate thread (Steves item on Lamb and the MWP)I posted lots of observations on the authenticated climate of Dartmoor(Southern England) close to my home, which contains habitation from the Bronze period through to the MWP. Basically we still have the buildings and fields and there have been lots of studies into crops grown and the elevations they were grown at.</p>
<p>Both civilisations decamped to the valleys when the climate deteriorated. In the case of the abandonment of the MWP farmsteads in the 1350&#8242;s we know the names of the people, what crops were growing and details of converting their barns to take different crops as the cultivation level dropped from around 1500 feet to around 1050 feet. I shall be there tomorrow at Hound Tor (mentioned in Sherlock Holmes adventure Hound of the Baskervilles)where the building walls and the field systems are still clear to see.</p>
<p>Presumably you are after observations of tree line levels rather than crop height levels to pursue your research?</p>
<p>Tony B</p>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36718</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m still disapointed that she did not come over to discuss the issue and engage intellectually.  Maybe I need to be more charming.  Thought that simple science interest and interest in her work being discussed would drive her.  Oh well...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still disapointed that she did not come over to discuss the issue and engage intellectually.  Maybe I need to be more charming.  Thought that simple science interest and interest in her work being discussed would drive her.  Oh well&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brooks Hurd</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36717</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brooks Hurd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 03:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve, I am uncertain as to the climate in that part of Namibia. I was hoping to find one or more articles on the subject of these trees, but hit a dead end.

Back on the topic of this thread, I was able to download a much better map of the White Wing Mountain area. The location is between Mammoth Mountain and June Lake. This area has relatively easy access from nearby roads.

The USGS map server is at http://nmviewogc.cr.usgs.gov/viewer.htm.

The location of White Wing Mountain is N 37 43.52&#039;  W 119 3.71&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I am uncertain as to the climate in that part of Namibia. I was hoping to find one or more articles on the subject of these trees, but hit a dead end.</p>
<p>Back on the topic of this thread, I was able to download a much better map of the White Wing Mountain area. The location is between Mammoth Mountain and June Lake. This area has relatively easy access from nearby roads.</p>
<p>The USGS map server is at <a href="http://nmviewogc.cr.usgs.gov/viewer.htm" rel="nofollow">http://nmviewogc.cr.usgs.gov/viewer.htm</a>.</p>
<p>The location of White Wing Mountain is N 37 43.52&#8242;  W 119 3.71&#8242;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 01:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brooks, those are beautiful photographs. I like that type of stark geometry.  One of the comments says:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Nearby, Dead Vlei was originally part of the greater Sossusvlei, but was cut off from the course of the Tsauchab River around 500 years ago. The trees have long since died, but have remained due to the slow rate of decomposition in the dry, salty environment. The remaining camel thorn trees stand out in stark contrast to the white floor of the pan. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.southphoto.com/feature.php?action=displayfeature&amp;conf%5Bfeatureid%5D=142&amp;conf%5Buserid%5D=220&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;

I know that the LIA in parts of Africa was very arid, but are you sure that this climate here?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooks, those are beautiful photographs. I like that type of stark geometry.  One of the comments says:</p>
<blockquote><p>Nearby, Dead Vlei was originally part of the greater Sossusvlei, but was cut off from the course of the Tsauchab River around 500 years ago. The trees have long since died, but have remained due to the slow rate of decomposition in the dry, salty environment. The remaining camel thorn trees stand out in stark contrast to the white floor of the pan. </p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.southphoto.com/feature.php?action=displayfeature&amp;conf%5Bfeatureid%5D=142&amp;conf%5Buserid%5D=220" rel="nofollow">link</a></p>
<p>I know that the LIA in parts of Africa was very arid, but are you sure that this climate here?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brooks Hurd</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brooks Hurd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,

Here are several links:
http://www.pbase.com/rhoover/namibia
http://www.slrobertson.com/namibia-namib-desert.htm
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/62088.html
http://www.rosemarycalvert.com/id49.htm

The photos are labled &quot;Dead Vlei Tree&quot;. Several of these have comments that the trees have been dead for between 500 to 700 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Here are several links:<br />
<a href="http://www.pbase.com/rhoover/namibia" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbase.com/rhoover/namibia</a><br />
<a href="http://www.slrobertson.com/namibia-namib-desert.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.slrobertson.com/namibia-namib-desert.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/62088.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/62088.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.rosemarycalvert.com/id49.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.rosemarycalvert.com/id49.htm</a></p>
<p>The photos are labled &#8220;Dead Vlei Tree&#8221;. Several of these have comments that the trees have been dead for between 500 to 700 years.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36714</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the answer from her was &quot;no&quot;.  (Worth a shot.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the answer from her was &#8220;no&#8221;.  (Worth a shot.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 04:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE #7 - Brooks, I couldn&#039;t find the photo.  There seems to be a correlation between dry periods in some parts of Africa and cold periods in North America.

Everyone, thanks for the various references. There&#039;s a micro-survey by Graunlich and Lloyd which I&#039;ll post up in a day or two. By a tree line graphic, I&#039;m looking for somtething like the Shiyatov graphic for Polar Urals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE #7 &#8211; Brooks, I couldn&#8217;t find the photo.  There seems to be a correlation between dry periods in some parts of Africa and cold periods in North America.</p>
<p>Everyone, thanks for the various references. There&#8217;s a micro-survey by Graunlich and Lloyd which I&#8217;ll post up in a day or two. By a tree line graphic, I&#8217;m looking for somtething like the Shiyatov graphic for Polar Urals.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 01:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I invited her to participate in the thread.  You guys behave.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I invited her to participate in the thread.  You guys behave.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seems to me that one concern wrt elevation change as a proxy is the time required for species to &quot;pioneer&quot; to new areas.  For seeds to blow and grow and outcompete residents (or die if reverse).  here I would think elevation movement along a mountain slope would happen much more quickly than latitude creep (Finland example).  I mean sheesh, don&#039;t you think it would take a while for a forest to move 150 miles north?  I guess maybe it can go a bit faster if the oaks were already there but not dominant.  Anyhow, needs to be dug into.  Should I invite the pretty lady over here?  I could even try to behave and not be my normal troll.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me that one concern wrt elevation change as a proxy is the time required for species to &#8220;pioneer&#8221; to new areas.  For seeds to blow and grow and outcompete residents (or die if reverse).  here I would think elevation movement along a mountain slope would happen much more quickly than latitude creep (Finland example).  I mean sheesh, don&#8217;t you think it would take a while for a forest to move 150 miles north?  I guess maybe it can go a bit faster if the oaks were already there but not dominant.  Anyhow, needs to be dug into.  Should I invite the pretty lady over here?  I could even try to behave and not be my normal troll.</p>
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		<title>By: Murray Duffin</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/05/medieval-6-whitewing-mt-california/#comment-36710</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Murray Duffin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 23:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=341#comment-36710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also came across several notes that climate variation in Northern Europe has been strongly winter and spring cooling and warming, with little change in summer temperatures. What effect would this have on the validity of tree ring analyses? Since most growth is in summer, it would seem to weaken the value of tree rings as a temperature proxy.  Murray]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also came across several notes that climate variation in Northern Europe has been strongly winter and spring cooling and warming, with little change in summer temperatures. What effect would this have on the validity of tree ring analyses? Since most growth is in summer, it would seem to weaken the value of tree rings as a temperature proxy.  Murray</p>
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