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	<title>Comments on: Thompson et al [1993] on Dunde</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Hu McCulloch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hu McCulloch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve mentioned this thread on on 11/10/07, topic #2335, comment #50 --

Steve -- IMHO, Newey-West greatly undercompensates for serial correlation, particularly when the dependent variable has been moving averaged, eg with a 5-year MA as here.  Fitting an AR(p) to the residuals and using it to compute the autocovariance matrix is a big improvement, though even that still understates the adjustment, even if the errors themselves are AR(p) -- the residuals will show less s.c. than the errors, and even if we saw the errors, OLS estimates of AR are biased in finite samples away from persistence.

Even if the original errors were serially uncorrelated, after taking a 5-year MA, only every 5th observation will be serially uncorrelated.  This means that you would have to consider only every 5th observation in order for OLS se&#039;s to be correct, but it&#039;s roughly what has to be be done to undo the effect of the averaging.

If you really want to estimate a time-averaged relationship, a more efficient way to do it than throwing out 4/5 or whatever of the observations would be to simply regress the unaveraged dependent variable on the averaged independent variable.  This will not introduce s.c. into the regression residuals, and will let you use the entire sample.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve mentioned this thread on on 11/10/07, topic #2335, comment #50 &#8211;</p>
<p>Steve &#8212; IMHO, Newey-West greatly undercompensates for serial correlation, particularly when the dependent variable has been moving averaged, eg with a 5-year MA as here.  Fitting an AR(p) to the residuals and using it to compute the autocovariance matrix is a big improvement, though even that still understates the adjustment, even if the errors themselves are AR(p) &#8212; the residuals will show less s.c. than the errors, and even if we saw the errors, OLS estimates of AR are biased in finite samples away from persistence.</p>
<p>Even if the original errors were serially uncorrelated, after taking a 5-year MA, only every 5th observation will be serially uncorrelated.  This means that you would have to consider only every 5th observation in order for OLS se&#8217;s to be correct, but it&#8217;s roughly what has to be be done to undo the effect of the averaging.</p>
<p>If you really want to estimate a time-averaged relationship, a more efficient way to do it than throwing out 4/5 or whatever of the observations would be to simply regress the unaveraged dependent variable on the averaged independent variable.  This will not introduce s.c. into the regression residuals, and will let you use the entire sample.</p>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[which number is more relevant to understanding the situation, the usefullness of the proxy?  The smoothed number or the unsmoothed one?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>which number is more relevant to understanding the situation, the usefullness of the proxy?  The smoothed number or the unsmoothed one?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James,
Hansen and Lebedeff go from 1880 on; but CRU was available back to 1854. You can&#039;t assume that they didn&#039;t look at both.

Actually, what I was originally interested in testing here was the impact of the smoothing in the calculation, rather than the impact of the truncation - which is just as interesting.

For the unsmoothed data 1851-1985, the r is 0.19; it increases to 0.20 for 1895-1985. The OLS t-statistic is 2.3 and with Newey-West standard errors, it&#039;s about the same.

Smoothing obviously changes hte autocorrelation properties and the effective degrees of freedom. For the smoothed data, the r increases to 0.39 from 1851-1985 (0.48 from 1895-1985). The OLS t-statistic is 4.94. However, with Newey-West standard errors, which is much more realistic with smoothed data, the t-statistic is only 1.15.

Smoothing to achieve &quot;significant&quot; correlations without allowing for the effect of the smoothing on standard errors is a very common Hockey Team statistical practice. Jones et al [1998] has a whole table full of &quot;decadal correlations&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,<br />
Hansen and Lebedeff go from 1880 on; but CRU was available back to 1854. You can&#8217;t assume that they didn&#8217;t look at both.</p>
<p>Actually, what I was originally interested in testing here was the impact of the smoothing in the calculation, rather than the impact of the truncation &#8211; which is just as interesting.</p>
<p>For the unsmoothed data 1851-1985, the r is 0.19; it increases to 0.20 for 1895-1985. The OLS t-statistic is 2.3 and with Newey-West standard errors, it&#8217;s about the same.</p>
<p>Smoothing obviously changes hte autocorrelation properties and the effective degrees of freedom. For the smoothed data, the r increases to 0.39 from 1851-1985 (0.48 from 1895-1985). The OLS t-statistic is 4.94. However, with Newey-West standard errors, which is much more realistic with smoothed data, the t-statistic is only 1.15.</p>
<p>Smoothing to achieve &#8220;significant&#8221; correlations without allowing for the effect of the smoothing on standard errors is a very common Hockey Team statistical practice. Jones et al [1998] has a whole table full of &#8220;decadal correlations&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: James Lane</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Lane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d also like to know the r statistic for the 1851-1985 data.

Is it possible that Hansen &amp; Lebedeff used 1895 as a starting point, and Thompson carried it over?  That would be careless rather than cherry-picking.p]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d also like to know the r statistic for the 1851-1985 data.</p>
<p>Is it possible that Hansen &amp; Lebedeff used 1895 as a starting point, and Thompson carried it over?  That would be careless rather than cherry-picking.p</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dardinger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37495</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Dardinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW, John Bell, concerning the answer 42 did you realize that the &#039;wrong&#039; question &quot;What is 9 x 6?&quot; actually is correct if you are working in base 13?  I suspect lots of mathematically inclined people figured that out on their own but I was pleased with myself for being one of them many years ago.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, John Bell, concerning the answer 42 did you realize that the &#8216;wrong&#8217; question &#8220;What is 9 x 6?&#8221; actually is correct if you are working in base 13?  I suspect lots of mathematically inclined people figured that out on their own but I was pleased with myself for being one of them many years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: John A</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s the r statistic for the entire dataset 1851-1985?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the r statistic for the entire dataset 1851-1985?</p>
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		<title>By: John G. Bell</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37493</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John G. Bell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 04:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #4: TCO, the overall answer was 42.  Does that help? :)  Don&#039;t know about moral issues.  Try Google.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #4: TCO, the overall answer was 42.  Does that help? <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Don&#8217;t know about moral issues.  Try Google.</p>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37492</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course.  But someone has to prove all the proxy foundational rationales.  But if we find a tree that is impacted by too hot temp and we can do the right transforms and all that and end up using it as a proxy, that&#039;s fine too.  and would be no reason to cackle.  It&#039;s all about the foundational rationale.  the quality of the calibration study. and the assessment of confounding factors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course.  But someone has to prove all the proxy foundational rationales.  But if we find a tree that is impacted by too hot temp and we can do the right transforms and all that and end up using it as a proxy, that&#8217;s fine too.  and would be no reason to cackle.  It&#8217;s all about the foundational rationale.  the quality of the calibration study. and the assessment of confounding factors.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37491</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Then somebody has to prove that it does. When they started the tropical ice cores, I think that they got blindsided when the dO18 relationship to temperature (on an annual basis) was the reverse of the poles. They have to argue that dO18 has a negative relationship to temperature on an annual basis, but a positive relationship to temperature on a century basis, which is a tough sell.

The &quot;amount effect&quot; is now distinguished from the temperature effect by many specialists and at least a sizeable minority do not appear to believe that dO18 is a temperature proxy in tropical glaciers. I haven&#039;t seen this caveat expressed by IPCC however.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then somebody has to prove that it does. When they started the tropical ice cores, I think that they got blindsided when the dO18 relationship to temperature (on an annual basis) was the reverse of the poles. They have to argue that dO18 has a negative relationship to temperature on an annual basis, but a positive relationship to temperature on a century basis, which is a tough sell.</p>
<p>The &#8220;amount effect&#8221; is now distinguished from the temperature effect by many specialists and at least a sizeable minority do not appear to believe that dO18 is a temperature proxy in tropical glaciers. I haven&#8217;t seen this caveat expressed by IPCC however.</p>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2005/09/18/thompson-et-al-1993-on-dunde/#comment-37490</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=374#comment-37490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[you still haven&#039;t answered 3.  How much does leaving that off change the overall answer.  Yeah, it shows some moral issues either way...but what is the effect?  We need to know that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you still haven&#8217;t answered 3.  How much does leaving that off change the overall answer.  Yeah, it shows some moral issues either way&#8230;but what is the effect?  We need to know that.</p>
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