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	<title>Comments on: The Wikipedia Spaghetti Graph and the Hockey Team</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 May 2013 19:12:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chas : Are you referring to my proxy reconstruction project? Sorry, I haven&#039;t really gotten around to documenting it, although I&#039;ve discussed the methods I&#039;m using a little. I was writing it for my own curiousity, and realized since I could put it up on a public web server I might as well let others play with it, but have not yet had time to write enough explanations to allow you to dive in. I may eventually have time to do that. If you like, send me an email to hb AT mo DOT x256 DOT org and I&#039;ll forward you some explanations I&#039;ve written previously which might help.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chas : Are you referring to my proxy reconstruction project? Sorry, I haven&#8217;t really gotten around to documenting it, although I&#8217;ve discussed the methods I&#8217;m using a little. I was writing it for my own curiousity, and realized since I could put it up on a public web server I might as well let others play with it, but have not yet had time to write enough explanations to allow you to dive in. I may eventually have time to do that. If you like, send me an email to hb AT mo DOT x256 DOT org and I&#8217;ll forward you some explanations I&#8217;ve written previously which might help.</p>
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		<title>By: Chas</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43240</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nicholas re#2
Your page looks fun and interesting!
Have you got a &#039;Janet and John&#039; introduction page anywhere?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicholas re#2<br />
Your page looks fun and interesting!<br />
Have you got a &#8216;Janet and John&#8217; introduction page anywhere?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43239</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE#36 -

This website is different in that Steve does have published work available, along with unpublished &quot;in-progress&quot; work.    Steve&#039;s work rises above speculation.  He provides reasoning for why various multi-proxy studies (and their data sets) are problematic.


Steve needs no cheerleading...and that is not my intent with this post.  Spend enough time here and you&#039;ll find the only speculation is with regard to the motives of the Hockey Team to withold data and methods, make ad hominem attacks, and refuse to answer simple, direct questions regarding their &quot;research.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE#36 -</p>
<p>This website is different in that Steve does have published work available, along with unpublished &#8220;in-progress&#8221; work.    Steve&#8217;s work rises above speculation.  He provides reasoning for why various multi-proxy studies (and their data sets) are problematic.</p>
<p>Steve needs no cheerleading&#8230;and that is not my intent with this post.  Spend enough time here and you&#8217;ll find the only speculation is with regard to the motives of the Hockey Team to withold data and methods, make ad hominem attacks, and refuse to answer simple, direct questions regarding their &#8220;research.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43238</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 05:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43238</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I actually thought there was quite a bit of relevance (temperature, entropy, models, fudge factors to get models to match, overzealous scientists).  Oh well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually thought there was quite a bit of relevance (temperature, entropy, models, fudge factors to get models to match, overzealous scientists).  Oh well.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43237</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 05:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43237</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We don&#039;t have too many rules here, but, for now, off-topic discussions of entropy are one of the few places that I draw the line and I&#039;ve deleted a number of comments - if I&#039;ve over-deleted, it&#039;s late and sorry about that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t have too many rules here, but, for now, off-topic discussions of entropy are one of the few places that I draw the line and I&#8217;ve deleted a number of comments &#8211; if I&#8217;ve over-deleted, it&#8217;s late and sorry about that.</p>
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		<title>By: john lichtenstein</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43236</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john lichtenstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 04:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John A - Re #29, Lambert&#039;s making a joke. He&#039;s talking about Steve&#039;s article, not your cosmology article. Read it again and I am sure you will get it. Myself I think his comparison makes no sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John A &#8211; Re #29, Lambert&#8217;s making a joke. He&#8217;s talking about Steve&#8217;s article, not your cosmology article. Read it again and I am sure you will get it. Myself I think his comparison makes no sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43235</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[i]But why publicise it before publication?[/i] Isn&#039;t that what this website is all about, unpublished specualtion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[i]But why publicise it before publication?[/i] Isn&#8217;t that what this website is all about, unpublished specualtion?</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicholas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John A - I&#039;m not sure what your primary fields are and whether they include physics, but personally when I read &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/neg_temperature.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; it broke my mind. And with that, I think we are getting quite far off-topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John A &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure what your primary fields are and whether they include physics, but personally when I read <a HREF="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/ParticleAndNuclear/neg_temperature.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> it broke my mind. And with that, I think we are getting quite far off-topic.</p>
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		<title>By: BradH</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43233</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BradH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: #31 Here are a few more details [from the Independent newspaper].  There are so many things in here which ring Sagan&#039;s &quot;extraordinary claims...&quot; alarm, my ears are hurting:-

...In recent years, most cosmologists have assumed dark matter to be &quot;cold&quot; - that the particles of which it is made moved around relatively slowly.

However, the astronomers calculated that they moved at about six miles per second, giving it a &quot;temperature&quot; higher than the surface of the Sun. If it was made of hydrogen atoms, dark matter would be as hot as 10,000 C. Thanks to its unusual nature, it has a high temperature caused by the excited movement of its particles but no heat.

Prof Gilmore added: &quot;The strange thing about dark matter is that it has temperature but doesn&#039;t give off radiation. It is a different form of matter not made of the same stuff as ordinary matter that consists of protons and neutrons, and has no charge.&quot;

The researchers calculated that while ordinary matter, such as that found on Earth, contains some 1023 particles per cubic cm, dark matter contains only one third of a particle in the same volume.

The particles cannot be packed together more tightly than the equivalent of four atoms of hydrogen per cubic cm of space. This low density means the smallest possible volume of dark matter is a cube measuring 1,000 light years along each side containing 13 million times as much mass as the Sun....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: #31 Here are a few more details [from the Independent newspaper].  There are so many things in here which ring Sagan&#8217;s &#8220;extraordinary claims&#8230;&#8221; alarm, my ears are hurting:-</p>
<p>&#8230;In recent years, most cosmologists have assumed dark matter to be &#8220;cold&#8221; &#8211; that the particles of which it is made moved around relatively slowly.</p>
<p>However, the astronomers calculated that they moved at about six miles per second, giving it a &#8220;temperature&#8221; higher than the surface of the Sun. If it was made of hydrogen atoms, dark matter would be as hot as 10,000 C. Thanks to its unusual nature, it has a high temperature caused by the excited movement of its particles but no heat.</p>
<p>Prof Gilmore added: &#8220;The strange thing about dark matter is that it has temperature but doesn&#8217;t give off radiation. It is a different form of matter not made of the same stuff as ordinary matter that consists of protons and neutrons, and has no charge.&#8221;</p>
<p>The researchers calculated that while ordinary matter, such as that found on Earth, contains some 1023 particles per cubic cm, dark matter contains only one third of a particle in the same volume.</p>
<p>The particles cannot be packed together more tightly than the equivalent of four atoms of hydrogen per cubic cm of space. This low density means the smallest possible volume of dark matter is a cube measuring 1,000 light years along each side containing 13 million times as much mass as the Sun&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis Hissink</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/04/the-wikipedia-spaghetti-graph-and-the-hockey-team/#comment-43232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Louis Hissink]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 08:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=499#comment-43232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re # 32

John,

all excellent points by I regard it as religion rather than science, so the usual checks and balances would not apply.  Notice how all the extra commentary are worded as &quot;awesome&quot; etc. Everyone agrees with it except for the renegades who publish in IEEE (plasma guys).

Cosmologists and astronomers regard themselves as the creme de la creme of science, dealing with creation and the big bang, and would regard our reactions as impertinence on our part. How dare we question their authority!

You can&#039;t disprove the theory because of its deductional nature.  They start off with one core assumption - the only force in the cosmos is gravity, and from that develop mathematically what we can read in your initial post # 28.

But why publicise it before publication? Indeed, or is it already slated for publication and its ready for printing and this is an advance PR campaign.

I suspect funding is the issue and they want maximum exposure now, not after publication when, I guess, funding decisions have been made.

Considering the kit they use (climate guys just need a slightly bigger computer) these guys would have rather large capex requirements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re # 32</p>
<p>John,</p>
<p>all excellent points by I regard it as religion rather than science, so the usual checks and balances would not apply.  Notice how all the extra commentary are worded as &#8220;awesome&#8221; etc. Everyone agrees with it except for the renegades who publish in IEEE (plasma guys).</p>
<p>Cosmologists and astronomers regard themselves as the creme de la creme of science, dealing with creation and the big bang, and would regard our reactions as impertinence on our part. How dare we question their authority!</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t disprove the theory because of its deductional nature.  They start off with one core assumption &#8211; the only force in the cosmos is gravity, and from that develop mathematically what we can read in your initial post # 28.</p>
<p>But why publicise it before publication? Indeed, or is it already slated for publication and its ready for printing and this is an advance PR campaign.</p>
<p>I suspect funding is the issue and they want maximum exposure now, not after publication when, I guess, funding decisions have been made.</p>
<p>Considering the kit they use (climate guys just need a slightly bigger computer) these guys would have rather large capex requirements.</p>
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