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	<title>Comments on: NAS News and Schedule</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 09:09:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: complete notebook reviews</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-240950</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[complete notebook reviews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 10:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-240950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This isn’t to say we don’t try to learn…to understand what is going on. But to make public policy.!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn’t to say we don’t try to learn…to understand what is going on. But to make public policy.!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 23:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No idea on what&#039;s going on.  Goldston of the House Science Committee seemed a bit chaffed at the broadness of the re-stated charter. As I mentioned in one note, he said that there would be plenty of time for big picture discussions; he hoped that they would take a couple of specific issues off the table. Little chance of that.

This Bloomfield is not a &quot;financial statistician&quot; in the slightest. He&#039;s a frequency-domain guy as is Nychka of UCAR. I&#039;d asked that they put someone on the panel who was familiar with time-domain statistics, but needless to say NAS was not going to do anything along those lines.

Bloomfield, like Nychka, sat like a bump on a log when Mann said that it would be &quot;foolish and incorrect&quot; to calculate an r2 statistic.  As the statisticians on the panel, I think that they had a responsibility to wade into that issue - which, after all, was the very issue that NAS called Barton on.

I thought that the Panel needed a good lawyer for a couple of reasons. Good litigation lawyers are quick on their feet and can often think on the spot of the questions that you think of when you go home  and think, damn, I wish I&#039;d asked that.  They are also quick studies at getting the gist of a file quickly; I didn&#039;t get the impression that the panel had the gist of the issues on March 2. They probably do now. In some ways, they&#039;d have been better having written submissions in March and oral presentations in April.  Finally, if you might have to get along with the other party afterwards but there are still some issues that you want to get on the table, sometimes it&#039;s handy to have the lawyer be the bad guy. So all in all, you wouldn&#039;t call them a hard-hitting panel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No idea on what&#8217;s going on.  Goldston of the House Science Committee seemed a bit chaffed at the broadness of the re-stated charter. As I mentioned in one note, he said that there would be plenty of time for big picture discussions; he hoped that they would take a couple of specific issues off the table. Little chance of that.</p>
<p>This Bloomfield is not a &#8220;financial statistician&#8221; in the slightest. He&#8217;s a frequency-domain guy as is Nychka of UCAR. I&#8217;d asked that they put someone on the panel who was familiar with time-domain statistics, but needless to say NAS was not going to do anything along those lines.</p>
<p>Bloomfield, like Nychka, sat like a bump on a log when Mann said that it would be &#8220;foolish and incorrect&#8221; to calculate an r2 statistic.  As the statisticians on the panel, I think that they had a responsibility to wade into that issue &#8211; which, after all, was the very issue that NAS called Barton on.</p>
<p>I thought that the Panel needed a good lawyer for a couple of reasons. Good litigation lawyers are quick on their feet and can often think on the spot of the questions that you think of when you go home  and think, damn, I wish I&#8217;d asked that.  They are also quick studies at getting the gist of a file quickly; I didn&#8217;t get the impression that the panel had the gist of the issues on March 2. They probably do now. In some ways, they&#8217;d have been better having written submissions in March and oral presentations in April.  Finally, if you might have to get along with the other party afterwards but there are still some issues that you want to get on the table, sometimes it&#8217;s handy to have the lawyer be the bad guy. So all in all, you wouldn&#8217;t call them a hard-hitting panel.</p>
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		<title>By: TCO</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 22:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s going on with the NAS panel?  Looked on the site and it says that they have had 4 meetings so far. They have a couple conflicting statements of expected duration of the panel (4 and 6 months).  They are overdue on the 4 month ticker.

I really wonder how they can say much on such a broad issue, as how they have restated their charter?  It&#039;s one thing to dig into an individual paper. But to pass judgment on a field is even trickier.  Requires more time and background.

What was your impression of Bloomfield from the panel discussion?  I saw that you had concerns about his addition (glad that a financial statistician was added, but worried about the previous connects to climate researchers).   How did he come across?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s going on with the NAS panel?  Looked on the site and it says that they have had 4 meetings so far. They have a couple conflicting statements of expected duration of the panel (4 and 6 months).  They are overdue on the 4 month ticker.</p>
<p>I really wonder how they can say much on such a broad issue, as how they have restated their charter?  It&#8217;s one thing to dig into an individual paper. But to pass judgment on a field is even trickier.  Requires more time and background.</p>
<p>What was your impression of Bloomfield from the panel discussion?  I saw that you had concerns about his addition (glad that a financial statistician was added, but worried about the previous connects to climate researchers).   How did he come across?</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Frank</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44531</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 02:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, it&#039;s 6:40 pm out here on the west coast. It&#039;s all over now but the summing up at the NAS committee in DC.  Steve and Ross are probably discussing the events over a beer, and only a dozen or so people in the whole world know how the panel behaved itself. I am really looking forward to Steve&#039;s report. I expect from his experience in DC this week, he&#039;ll be able to predict pretty well the overall tone of the panel&#039;s up-coming proxy assessment report. I wonder which door they&#039;ll open . . . . the lady or the tiger? Science or Lysenkoism?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s 6:40 pm out here on the west coast. It&#8217;s all over now but the summing up at the NAS committee in DC.  Steve and Ross are probably discussing the events over a beer, and only a dozen or so people in the whole world know how the panel behaved itself. I am really looking forward to Steve&#8217;s report. I expect from his experience in DC this week, he&#8217;ll be able to predict pretty well the overall tone of the panel&#8217;s up-coming proxy assessment report. I wonder which door they&#8217;ll open . . . . the lady or the tiger? Science or Lysenkoism?</p>
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		<title>By: JerryB</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JerryB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 16:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #210

From http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/images/strato_temp.gif it appears that the factors causing largest stratospheric heating are volcanic eruptions.

However, I would encourage caution about attempting to deduce too much from too little data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #210</p>
<p>From <a href="http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/images/strato_temp.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/MSU/images/strato_temp.gif</a> it appears that the factors causing largest stratospheric heating are volcanic eruptions.</p>
<p>However, I would encourage caution about attempting to deduce too much from too little data.</p>
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		<title>By: beng</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[beng]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 16:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comments, John Lish &amp; JerryB. Since the Hockey Team/IPCC stuff&#039;s been dissected into freshmen-level stats &amp; cherry-picked conclusions, I feel less guilty about my own speculations. So anyone correct as necessary. :)

I think the direction of the &quot;torque&quot; put on the earth&#039;s magnetic field depends on the polarity of the sun&#039;s field, which flips during the height of the sunspot cycle. So, the spinning up/down of earth from this should cancel out over time (but the amount of change for single events is important in estimating the energy involved). OTOH, frictional drag on the earth&#039;s atmosphere by the solar wind causes a small but always-slowing effect on rotation.

Still, there seems like alot of energy involved, and no process (dynamo-like changing of the earth&#039;s rotation rate, just like an electric motor) is perfect, which would result in &quot;waste&quot; heat occuring somewhere, maybe below the earth&#039;s surface via fluid-friction. Of course, that could be negligible or forever sealed away by the insulating crust.

I&#039;m pretty sure the ionsphere and maybe even the upper stratosphere expand outward from heating during high-sunspot activity. Since the tropopause state (altitude/pressure/temp, gas composition, etc) is very important in the GHG radiational effects, I&#039;m wondering how much this expansion/contraction would effect it and if it&#039;s been accounted for in the models.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, John Lish &amp; JerryB. Since the Hockey Team/IPCC stuff&#8217;s been dissected into freshmen-level stats &amp; cherry-picked conclusions, I feel less guilty about my own speculations. So anyone correct as necessary. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think the direction of the &#8220;torque&#8221; put on the earth&#8217;s magnetic field depends on the polarity of the sun&#8217;s field, which flips during the height of the sunspot cycle. So, the spinning up/down of earth from this should cancel out over time (but the amount of change for single events is important in estimating the energy involved). OTOH, frictional drag on the earth&#8217;s atmosphere by the solar wind causes a small but always-slowing effect on rotation.</p>
<p>Still, there seems like alot of energy involved, and no process (dynamo-like changing of the earth&#8217;s rotation rate, just like an electric motor) is perfect, which would result in &#8220;waste&#8221; heat occuring somewhere, maybe below the earth&#8217;s surface via fluid-friction. Of course, that could be negligible or forever sealed away by the insulating crust.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure the ionsphere and maybe even the upper stratosphere expand outward from heating during high-sunspot activity. Since the tropopause state (altitude/pressure/temp, gas composition, etc) is very important in the GHG radiational effects, I&#8217;m wondering how much this expansion/contraction would effect it and if it&#8217;s been accounted for in the models.</p>
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		<title>By: JerryB</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JerryB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 20:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ironically, since 1973, the length of day has decreased more than it has increased.

See http://maia.usno.navy.mil/lplot1.gif and http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1860.gif for a longer term view.

See http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1974.htm for sources of data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ironically, since 1973, the length of day has decreased more than it has increased.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://maia.usno.navy.mil/lplot1.gif" rel="nofollow">http://maia.usno.navy.mil/lplot1.gif</a> and <a href="http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1860.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1860.gif</a> for a longer term view.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1974.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.john-daly.com/press/lods1974.htm</a> for sources of data.</p>
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		<title>By: nanny_govt_sucks</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nanny_govt_sucks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 20:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#206 - Very interesting. I wonder if it wasn&#039;t the spin rate but time itself that was sped up slightly by the solar storm?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#206 &#8211; Very interesting. I wonder if it wasn&#8217;t the spin rate but time itself that was sped up slightly by the solar storm?</p>
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		<title>By: Scared</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44526</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scared]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 19:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44526</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re #196:  CO2 concentration in atmosphere in 2000 was 375 ppm.  That is 0.0375%.  Or one part in 2667.  Sounds REALLY scary to me!  Amazing, isn&#039;t it!  Something in such a low concentration can have such a massive impact on global climate!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re #196:  CO2 concentration in atmosphere in 2000 was 375 ppm.  That is 0.0375%.  Or one part in 2667.  Sounds REALLY scary to me!  Amazing, isn&#8217;t it!  Something in such a low concentration can have such a massive impact on global climate!</p>
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		<title>By: John Lish</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/02/24/nas-news-and-schedule/#comment-44525</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Lish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 16:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=551#comment-44525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#203 beng - I thought I had some information so went looking and found the following reference to a paper presented by Gribbin and Plagemann in Nature, unfortunately only the abstract is available online (see below). What my reference does say is that the Earth day was lengthened by this solar flare by 16 milliseconds. The estimated energy required to do that was 10,612,645,000,000,000 kwh. For a comparison, the USA consumes 3.656 trillion kWh (2003) in a year. The force required to brake the Earth for 16 milliseconds was nearly 3,000 times the energy levels. I&#039;m not entirely certain of the figures but it does demonstrate the forces being applied to the Earth.

Gribbin, J., and S. Plagemann 1973. Discontinuous change in Earth&#039;s spin rate following Great Solar Storm of August 1972. Nature 243, 26-27, doi:10.1038/243026a0.

The question of a link between changes in the Earth&#039;s spin rate and the activity of the Sun is of topical interest, and there is good evidence that the changing length of day is influenced by the mean level of solar activity. The possibility of a one-to-one correlation between specific events on the Sun and specific changes in the length of day has remained more controversial, however, although there was a suggestion of such an effect associated with the great solar storm of 1959. Specifically, Danjon suggested that there was an increase in the length of day when the nucleonic component of solar cosmic rays increased ; this was in addition to the usual steady increase in the length of day. Other observers questioned the reality of this effect, and because the 1959 solar storm was the greatest recorded since the time of Galileo, there was no immediate hope of an independent test of Danjon&#039;s claim. In August 1972, however, an even greater disturbance occurred on the Sun. It seemed to us that this might provide the ideal opportunity to resolve the controversy, and we have indeed found a discontinuous change in the length of day, and a change in the rate of change of the length of day (a glitch) immediately after that event. Changes in the length of day, and thus in the spin rate of the Earth, are revealed by regular measurements of Universal Time (UT) carried out at many observatories around the world. For our purpose, we are interested in UT2, the version of Universal Time with the effects of the Chandler Wobble and seasonal variations removed. The difference between Atomic Time (AT) and UT2 shows, on average, a monotonic increase as the Earth&#039;s spin slows down and the length of day increases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#203 beng &#8211; I thought I had some information so went looking and found the following reference to a paper presented by Gribbin and Plagemann in Nature, unfortunately only the abstract is available online (see below). What my reference does say is that the Earth day was lengthened by this solar flare by 16 milliseconds. The estimated energy required to do that was 10,612,645,000,000,000 kwh. For a comparison, the USA consumes 3.656 trillion kWh (2003) in a year. The force required to brake the Earth for 16 milliseconds was nearly 3,000 times the energy levels. I&#8217;m not entirely certain of the figures but it does demonstrate the forces being applied to the Earth.</p>
<p>Gribbin, J., and S. Plagemann 1973. Discontinuous change in Earth&#8217;s spin rate following Great Solar Storm of August 1972. Nature 243, 26-27, doi:10.1038/243026a0.</p>
<p>The question of a link between changes in the Earth&#8217;s spin rate and the activity of the Sun is of topical interest, and there is good evidence that the changing length of day is influenced by the mean level of solar activity. The possibility of a one-to-one correlation between specific events on the Sun and specific changes in the length of day has remained more controversial, however, although there was a suggestion of such an effect associated with the great solar storm of 1959. Specifically, Danjon suggested that there was an increase in the length of day when the nucleonic component of solar cosmic rays increased ; this was in addition to the usual steady increase in the length of day. Other observers questioned the reality of this effect, and because the 1959 solar storm was the greatest recorded since the time of Galileo, there was no immediate hope of an independent test of Danjon&#8217;s claim. In August 1972, however, an even greater disturbance occurred on the Sun. It seemed to us that this might provide the ideal opportunity to resolve the controversy, and we have indeed found a discontinuous change in the length of day, and a change in the rate of change of the length of day (a glitch) immediately after that event. Changes in the length of day, and thus in the spin rate of the Earth, are revealed by regular measurements of Universal Time (UT) carried out at many observatories around the world. For our purpose, we are interested in UT2, the version of Universal Time with the effects of the Chandler Wobble and seasonal variations removed. The difference between Atomic Time (AT) and UT2 shows, on average, a monotonic increase as the Earth&#8217;s spin slows down and the length of day increases.</p>
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