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	<title>Comments on: Von Storch at NAS</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: FrancisT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45210</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FrancisT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 14:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FYI the PPT has moved. If anyone else cares it is now at &lt;a href=&quot;http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI the PPT has moved. If anyone else cares it is now at <a href="http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt</a></p>
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		<title>By: Leif</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leif]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 01:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[47 (Thor): I note that the solar forcing used by Von Storch is based on 10-year old TSI-reconstructions that are no longer considered valid [vastly overestimates the background variation of TSI].]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>47 (Thor): I note that the solar forcing used by Von Storch is based on 10-year old TSI-reconstructions that are no longer considered valid [vastly overestimates the background variation of TSI].</p>
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		<title>By: Thor</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45208</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 17:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45208</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The link to the Von Storch powerpoint doesn&#039;t work due to a server name change, the PPT can now be found &lt;a href=&quot;http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here: 8.7 Mb PPT&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The link to the Von Storch powerpoint doesn&#8217;t work due to a server name change, the PPT can now be found <a href="http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/PPT/ipcc/060302.washington.nrc.ppt" rel="nofollow">here: 8.7 Mb PPT</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Rankin</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Rankin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 17:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For those that don&#039;t have PowerPoint, the Von Storch slide show is available in html at the website Global Warning Sceptic referenced on the sidebar.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those that don&#8217;t have PowerPoint, the Von Storch slide show is available in html at the website Global Warning Sceptic referenced on the sidebar.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45206</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 22:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: #41. Forgot to mention the shallow overall profile of the Arctic as well as quasi stagnant situation of limited ingress and egress. In fact, ironically, I would expect that sea ice which tends to build up annually and peak during the Spring in a rough diagonal from southern Greenland across the the tip of Sptizbergen to exacerbate the stagnation factor. Naturally stagnation is no where near what it is in the Mediterranean.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: #41. Forgot to mention the shallow overall profile of the Arctic as well as quasi stagnant situation of limited ingress and egress. In fact, ironically, I would expect that sea ice which tends to build up annually and peak during the Spring in a rough diagonal from southern Greenland across the the tip of Sptizbergen to exacerbate the stagnation factor. Naturally stagnation is no where near what it is in the Mediterranean.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Schulin</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Schulin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 22:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re # 43

Dear Paul - Risbey et al. aren&#039;t _recommending_ the expectation of zero centennial trend, they are _reporting_ the state-of-the-art opinion amongst attribution experts. That&#039;s what their study was, a questionairre and follow-up interviews with a range of attribution experts. A companion article in Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society was interesting too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re # 43</p>
<p>Dear Paul &#8211; Risbey et al. aren&#8217;t _recommending_ the expectation of zero centennial trend, they are _reporting_ the state-of-the-art opinion amongst attribution experts. That&#8217;s what their study was, a questionairre and follow-up interviews with a range of attribution experts. A companion article in Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society was interesting too.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Linsay</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Linsay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#39 Risbey&#039;s statement &lt;blockquote&gt;The expected mean trend in century-long series of (internally generated) natural variability is typically zero unless there are reasons to expect a prolonged cooling or warming on this scale.&lt;/blockquote&gt; assumes an answer for something that has be verified by measurement.  At the level of the GCMs, even the warmers accept the idea that climate is a non-linear dynamical system, which means that on its own there is lots of internal variability even without a change in external forcing.  Riseby et. al., doesn&#039;t make any sense to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#39 Risbey&#8217;s statement<br />
<blockquote>The expected mean trend in century-long series of (internally generated) natural variability is typically zero unless there are reasons to expect a prolonged cooling or warming on this scale.</p></blockquote>
<p> assumes an answer for something that has be verified by measurement.  At the level of the GCMs, even the warmers accept the idea that climate is a non-linear dynamical system, which means that on its own there is lots of internal variability even without a change in external forcing.  Riseby et. al., doesn&#8217;t make any sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: #17. I wonder if anyone has ever explicitly modeled the impact of energy imparted by radars of typical major urban, small city and rural airports?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: #17. I wonder if anyone has ever explicitly modeled the impact of energy imparted by radars of typical major urban, small city and rural airports?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45202</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45202</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: #14. Something I&#039;ve often wondered about is the extent to which plain old salinity has played a role in sea ice extent. This variable would tend to be quite steady in the Antarctic and all over the map in the Arctic, the latter also being superimposed on the ongoing steady salinity increase due to the massive irrigation water diversions from Eurasia&#039;s north flowing rivers east of the Urals. Based on this alone, I would expect Arctic ice extent to have steadily declined on the Eurasian side of the basin and possibly beyond. Whereas in the stable Antarctic, with few rivers of note and minimal diversions to impact salinity, I&#039;d expect there to have been no overall shift in the &quot;DC bias level&quot; and less of an &quot;AC component&quot; as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: #14. Something I&#8217;ve often wondered about is the extent to which plain old salinity has played a role in sea ice extent. This variable would tend to be quite steady in the Antarctic and all over the map in the Arctic, the latter also being superimposed on the ongoing steady salinity increase due to the massive irrigation water diversions from Eurasia&#8217;s north flowing rivers east of the Urals. Based on this alone, I would expect Arctic ice extent to have steadily declined on the Eurasian side of the basin and possibly beyond. Whereas in the stable Antarctic, with few rivers of note and minimal diversions to impact salinity, I&#8217;d expect there to have been no overall shift in the &#8220;DC bias level&#8221; and less of an &#8220;AC component&#8221; as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dardinger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/04/von-storch-at-nas/#comment-45201</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Dardinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=559#comment-45201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve S(Can&#039;t we get people with any first name but Steve to post here?),

I&#039;ve read your post a few times and it sure seems to me that if you&#039;re accurately presenting &quot;The standard assumption in climate research&quot;, the whole thing is one big circular argument.

Sure &quot;the expected mean trend of X on a century scale is 0&quot; can be said for many things, not just global temperatures.  This sort of statement just serves as an implicit null hypothesis.  That&#039;s particularly so in a case such as you present where an aside like &quot;unless there are reasons to expect a prolonged cooling or warming on this scale&quot; is provided.  In other words, the science is going to be based on assuming no major long-term increase in global temperatures.  So when a proxy reconstruction like Mann98 is produced that shows essentially no century-scale changes in temperature before the advent of large amounts of human-based CO2 production, you can legitimately do one of two things, but not both.  You can say that Mann98 confirms the null hypothesis or you can say that the null hypothesis makes the findings of Mann98 reasonable. But if doubt is cast on the findings of low variability in global climate based on the procedures of Mann98 then either doubt is also cast on the null hypothesis or the null hypothesis tends to reject Mann98 after all.  You can&#039;t use the initial agreement of Mann98 and the null hypothesis to amelorate the later findings of statistical doubt.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve S(Can&#8217;t we get people with any first name but Steve to post here?),</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read your post a few times and it sure seems to me that if you&#8217;re accurately presenting &#8220;The standard assumption in climate research&#8221;, the whole thing is one big circular argument.</p>
<p>Sure &#8220;the expected mean trend of X on a century scale is 0&#8243; can be said for many things, not just global temperatures.  This sort of statement just serves as an implicit null hypothesis.  That&#8217;s particularly so in a case such as you present where an aside like &#8220;unless there are reasons to expect a prolonged cooling or warming on this scale&#8221; is provided.  In other words, the science is going to be based on assuming no major long-term increase in global temperatures.  So when a proxy reconstruction like Mann98 is produced that shows essentially no century-scale changes in temperature before the advent of large amounts of human-based CO2 production, you can legitimately do one of two things, but not both.  You can say that Mann98 confirms the null hypothesis or you can say that the null hypothesis makes the findings of Mann98 reasonable. But if doubt is cast on the findings of low variability in global climate based on the procedures of Mann98 then either doubt is also cast on the null hypothesis or the null hypothesis tends to reject Mann98 after all.  You can&#8217;t use the initial agreement of Mann98 and the null hypothesis to amelorate the later findings of statistical doubt.</p>
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