<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: IPCC 4AR and Ammann</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:55:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: fFreddy</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fFreddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 23:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve Bloom, are you a media consultant/spin doctor of some sort ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Bloom, are you a media consultant/spin doctor of some sort ?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#59. If the only criticim that people can make is that, in one of hundreds of posts, I thought that the 2nd order review was sent to governments and not expert reviewers (which I promptly acknowledged when it was brought to my attention), and people wish to make merry about that, then any such person is in pretty desperate shape.  What&#039;s this gotcha mentality?  BTW you haven&#039;t answered what you think about Ammann and Wahl concealing the GRL rejection in their Climatic Change correspondence.

IPCC did not say that it was &quot;likely&quot; that MBH98 had statistical skill in verification statistics - they asserted it flat out. Because it was not merely an incidental graphic, then they should not ignore the misrepresentation.  That&#039;s a completely different issue than whether the graphic itself was &quot;likely&quot; or not.  Indeed,  because MBH98 failed cross-validation r2 tests, IPCC could not assert that it was even &quot;likely&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#59. If the only criticim that people can make is that, in one of hundreds of posts, I thought that the 2nd order review was sent to governments and not expert reviewers (which I promptly acknowledged when it was brought to my attention), and people wish to make merry about that, then any such person is in pretty desperate shape.  What&#8217;s this gotcha mentality?  BTW you haven&#8217;t answered what you think about Ammann and Wahl concealing the GRL rejection in their Climatic Change correspondence.</p>
<p>IPCC did not say that it was &quot;likely&quot; that MBH98 had statistical skill in verification statistics &#8211; they asserted it flat out. Because it was not merely an incidental graphic, then they should not ignore the misrepresentation.  That&#8217;s a completely different issue than whether the graphic itself was &quot;likely&quot; or not.  Indeed,  because MBH98 failed cross-validation r2 tests, IPCC could not assert that it was even &quot;likely&quot;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45921</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Bloom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 22:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #55:  Steve, you do understand that over the course of the next week or so a certain amount of fun is going to be had at your expense due to the ironic nature of this little misapprehension.  Batten down the hatches.

As for the predictions in your last paragraph, I wouldn&#039;t know about the former one, but as to the latter one you&#039;re absolutely right.  I would point out that since the IPPC only said MBH was &quot;likely&quot; to be right, it&#039;s not reasonable to ask them to admit to a misrepresentation even if you&#039;re correct in your statistical criticisms of MBH.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #55:  Steve, you do understand that over the course of the next week or so a certain amount of fun is going to be had at your expense due to the ironic nature of this little misapprehension.  Batten down the hatches.</p>
<p>As for the predictions in your last paragraph, I wouldn&#8217;t know about the former one, but as to the latter one you&#8217;re absolutely right.  I would point out that since the IPPC only said MBH was &#8220;likely&#8221; to be right, it&#8217;s not reasonable to ask them to admit to a misrepresentation even if you&#8217;re correct in your statistical criticisms of MBH.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ET SidViscous</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ET SidViscous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Then the villain just cracks up totally, and admits the graph was deliberate fake.&quot;

Could get Jack Nicholson to play Mann, then he can re-hash the whole. &quot;You wnat the Truth, you can&#039;t handle the truth.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Then the villain just cracks up totally, and admits the graph was deliberate fake.&#8221;</p>
<p>Could get Jack Nicholson to play Mann, then he can re-hash the whole. &#8220;You wnat the Truth, you can&#8217;t handle the truth.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Penrose</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Penrose]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found the whole movie thing to be a waste (and skipped those postings), but the rest has been useful. This is a BLOG, and so one should expect a certain amount of noise. Actually, for a blog the S/N is pretty high.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found the whole movie thing to be a waste (and skipped those postings), but the rest has been useful. This is a BLOG, and so one should expect a certain amount of noise. Actually, for a blog the S/N is pretty high.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug L</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45918</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Definitely not a waste of time, more movie ideas:

Near the beginning we are greeted by a professor Von Storch played by an animated duck.   He has a role as narrator and introduces a brief telling of the Chicken Little Fable.

Also we have Clyde Crashcup, ludicrous visionary who produces Rube Goldberg contraptions on his chalkboard, creates them, has some sort of disaster and then says &quot;Oh well, back to the old drawing board!&quot;

List of Clyde Crashcup inventions on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Crashcup

Finally we are introduced to important characters, all coroners to symbolize the analysis of a dead hockey stick graph.  The aging absent minded professor is played by Jack Klugman, revered coroner of the old show &quot;Quincy&quot;.  The hero is played by Robert David Hall, coroner of the hit TV series &quot;CSI&quot;.

Steve seems to prefer an exotic look in the babes so that role is played by the CSI Miami coroner, Alexx Woods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely not a waste of time, more movie ideas:</p>
<p>Near the beginning we are greeted by a professor Von Storch played by an animated duck.   He has a role as narrator and introduces a brief telling of the Chicken Little Fable.</p>
<p>Also we have Clyde Crashcup, ludicrous visionary who produces Rube Goldberg contraptions on his chalkboard, creates them, has some sort of disaster and then says &#8220;Oh well, back to the old drawing board!&#8221;</p>
<p>List of Clyde Crashcup inventions on Wikipedia:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Crashcup" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Crashcup</a></p>
<p>Finally we are introduced to important characters, all coroners to symbolize the analysis of a dead hockey stick graph.  The aging absent minded professor is played by Jack Klugman, revered coroner of the old show &#8220;Quincy&#8221;.  The hero is played by Robert David Hall, coroner of the hit TV series &#8220;CSI&#8221;.</p>
<p>Steve seems to prefer an exotic look in the babes so that role is played by the CSI Miami coroner, Alexx Woods.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#54. Bart S. is correct that the 2nd draft is sent out to expert reviewers for comment, as well as to governments. My surmise in #41 that the 2nd review is limited to government reviewers was incorrect. I will have the opportunity to make a comment in the 2nd review. Having acknowledged that, there are some substantive issues and some for idle amusement. Also, I disagree that the comments in the thread have been a waste of time. I&#039;ve learned something about IPCC process details and these are important if you&#039;re dealing with people who insist on these process details when they think that it is to their advantage (as I&#039;ve found in my dealings with IPCC WG1).

On the amusement side, I&#039;m convinced that Ammann and Wahl have been twisting themselves like pretzels to have their article meet IPCC deadlines. That&#039;s fair enough on their side; but it indicates that they put some importance on being mentioned in IPCC 4AR.

For example, one day before the Christchurch meeting, they announce &quot;provisional acceptance&quot; presumably to influence IPCC to include Ammann and Wahl in the 2nd order draft. Obviously, Ammann and Wahl did not meet Christchurch standards that the article &quot;will not be subsequently modified (except perhaps for copy editing)&quot; because it seems that the provisional acceptance included requirements for heavy modifications, which were then carried out after the Christchurch date. (I&#039;m not certain that the modifications were carried out after December 13, but the circumstantial evidence strongly indicates this, as discussed before.) Ammann and Wahl certainly did not inform IPCC that they had to carry out substantial modifications of their articles under the terms of the provisional acceptance and that they did not meet Christchurch standards for inclusion and accordingly they regretfully withdrew their article from consideration for use in the second order draft.

Lead authors for the second order draft had to have &quot;final preprint&quot; copies by late February or remove the citation. March 3 was the deadline for lead authors sending their copy to IPCC WG1. On Feb. 28, Ammann and Wahl had the Feb 24 version of their article finally accepted by Climatic Change and on March 3, they post this version up at their website. Intuitively, it seems to me that what they&#039;ve posted up on March 3 is something that only meets Christchurch standards. This isn&#039;t a &quot;final preprint&quot; showing a reference Wahl and Ammann... Climatic Change 32, 568-622 or whatever. They are about 2 months behind schedule in both steps. It must piss them off.

But we are in no position right now to speculate that IPCC has in any way bent its standards with respect to Ammann and Wahl or even that they have not noticed that the revisions unwillingly confirm our observations about MBH verification statistics. I think that we can reasonably speculate that the latter is very unlikely if only because the changes were made in breach of Christchurch standards and the changes were probably not brought to the attention of the IPCC Lead Authors. (By the way, shouldn&#039;t Ammann and Wahl have had a duty to report material changes to IPCC Lead Authors? You would in a business prospectus.)

Also we are in no position to know whether IPCC will use this article after the above breaches of policy are pointed out. BTW the substantial changes in Ammann and Wahl post-Christchurch is not an &quot;incidental&quot; breach.

You know something, I think that there&#039;s at least a 50-50 chance that Ammann and Wahl is not used in IPCC 4AR. I think that there&#039;s a 0% chance that they will report that results in Ammann and Wahl showed that IPCC TAR had misrepresented the statistical skill of the MBH recosntruction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#54. Bart S. is correct that the 2nd draft is sent out to expert reviewers for comment, as well as to governments. My surmise in #41 that the 2nd review is limited to government reviewers was incorrect. I will have the opportunity to make a comment in the 2nd review. Having acknowledged that, there are some substantive issues and some for idle amusement. Also, I disagree that the comments in the thread have been a waste of time. I&#8217;ve learned something about IPCC process details and these are important if you&#8217;re dealing with people who insist on these process details when they think that it is to their advantage (as I&#8217;ve found in my dealings with IPCC WG1).</p>
<p>On the amusement side, I&#8217;m convinced that Ammann and Wahl have been twisting themselves like pretzels to have their article meet IPCC deadlines. That&#8217;s fair enough on their side; but it indicates that they put some importance on being mentioned in IPCC 4AR.</p>
<p>For example, one day before the Christchurch meeting, they announce &quot;provisional acceptance&quot; presumably to influence IPCC to include Ammann and Wahl in the 2nd order draft. Obviously, Ammann and Wahl did not meet Christchurch standards that the article &quot;will not be subsequently modified (except perhaps for copy editing)&quot; because it seems that the provisional acceptance included requirements for heavy modifications, which were then carried out after the Christchurch date. (I&#8217;m not certain that the modifications were carried out after December 13, but the circumstantial evidence strongly indicates this, as discussed before.) Ammann and Wahl certainly did not inform IPCC that they had to carry out substantial modifications of their articles under the terms of the provisional acceptance and that they did not meet Christchurch standards for inclusion and accordingly they regretfully withdrew their article from consideration for use in the second order draft.</p>
<p>Lead authors for the second order draft had to have &quot;final preprint&quot; copies by late February or remove the citation. March 3 was the deadline for lead authors sending their copy to IPCC WG1. On Feb. 28, Ammann and Wahl had the Feb 24 version of their article finally accepted by Climatic Change and on March 3, they post this version up at their website. Intuitively, it seems to me that what they&#8217;ve posted up on March 3 is something that only meets Christchurch standards. This isn&#8217;t a &quot;final preprint&quot; showing a reference Wahl and Ammann&#8230; Climatic Change 32, 568-622 or whatever. They are about 2 months behind schedule in both steps. It must piss them off.</p>
<p>But we are in no position right now to speculate that IPCC has in any way bent its standards with respect to Ammann and Wahl or even that they have not noticed that the revisions unwillingly confirm our observations about MBH verification statistics. I think that we can reasonably speculate that the latter is very unlikely if only because the changes were made in breach of Christchurch standards and the changes were probably not brought to the attention of the IPCC Lead Authors. (By the way, shouldn&#8217;t Ammann and Wahl have had a duty to report material changes to IPCC Lead Authors? You would in a business prospectus.)</p>
<p>Also we are in no position to know whether IPCC will use this article after the above breaches of policy are pointed out. BTW the substantial changes in Ammann and Wahl post-Christchurch is not an &quot;incidental&quot; breach.</p>
<p>You know something, I think that there&#8217;s at least a 50-50 chance that Ammann and Wahl is not used in IPCC 4AR. I think that there&#8217;s a 0% chance that they will report that results in Ammann and Wahl showed that IPCC TAR had misrepresented the statistical skill of the MBH recosntruction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bart s</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bart s]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 09:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re 48: one should of course not let a good conspiracy slip by, but for the sake of facts, here is what the IPCC website says:
&quot;Second order draft -- including draft TS and SPM - made available to external reviewers and Government reviewers for an 8-week review period by April 7&quot;. So the condemned IPCC had all the time planned to let Steve (who in this capacity is an expert reviewer) review  the next version of the report (if he wants to), also to check whether the authors had taken previous comments into account. As often said here - the truth lies in the details. So far 53 comments wasted on unfounded conspirational thinking...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re 48: one should of course not let a good conspiracy slip by, but for the sake of facts, here is what the IPCC website says:<br />
&#8220;Second order draft &#8212; including draft TS and SPM &#8211; made available to external reviewers and Government reviewers for an 8-week review period by April 7&#8243;. So the condemned IPCC had all the time planned to let Steve (who in this capacity is an expert reviewer) review  the next version of the report (if he wants to), also to check whether the authors had taken previous comments into account. As often said here &#8211; the truth lies in the details. So far 53 comments wasted on unfounded conspirational thinking&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45915</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 06:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[44: stupid, it stinks and won&#039;t sell.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>44: stupid, it stinks and won&#8217;t sell.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Linsay</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/10/ipcc-4ar-and-ammann/#comment-45914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Linsay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=578#comment-45914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe she could arrange to have a wardrobe malfunction.  Then we could see if the bristle cones record 2006 as the hottest year ever.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe she could arrange to have a wardrobe malfunction.  Then we could see if the bristle cones record 2006 as the hottest year ever.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
