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	<title>Comments on: Mann at the NAS Panel</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: The Strata-Sphere &#187; Mann&#8217;s Perjury To NAS Panel</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-318667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Strata-Sphere &#187; Mann&#8217;s Perjury To NAS Panel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2011 21:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-318667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] is the passage from The Hockey Stick Illusion and McIntyre&#8217;s blog: He [McIntyre] explained to the panel how Mann had reported in MBH98 that he had calculated the R2 [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is the passage from The Hockey Stick Illusion and McIntyre&#8217;s blog: He [McIntyre] explained to the panel how Mann had reported in MBH98 that he had calculated the R2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Mann Report &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-219452</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Mann Report &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-219452</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the panelists sat there like bumps on a log. My contemporary post on Mann&#8217;s presentation is here and noted: Christy did ask Mann: “Did you calculate R2?” ‘? Mann’s answer was: “We [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the panelists sat there like bumps on a log. My contemporary post on Mann&#8217;s presentation is here and noted: Christy did ask Mann: “Did you calculate R2?” ‘? Mann’s answer was: “We [...]</p>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
Mann then said (perhaps in reply to a query about bristlecones - my notes are unclear) that the western US was important to the EOF1; it was a “sweet spot”&#039;? for estimating NH mean. No one on the panel asked for a further explanation of this. I checked this and was unable to confirm this claim; indeed, my calculations show the opposite. 5 of 6 EOF1 coefficients for the 6 gridcells from 112.5 to 122.5 W and 37.5-42.5N are less than the median (which includes the California bristlecone/foxtail sites) and the sixth is barely above the median. A “sweet sport”&#039;? is at 7.5N; 52.5-67.5E. The lowish weights in this area are observable in the color-coded diagram in MBH98 itself.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


There is also interesting  cold spot at Western Greenland (Mann&#039;s grid point 969, 72.5 N  27.5 W), a place that responds negatively to the warming trend (described by TPC1). Can&#039;t find data for that grid point from HadCRUT3. I&#039;d like to find recent data for that grid,  as you note



&lt;blockquote&gt;Whether the EOFs are stationary is a big question.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


(Of course, any nonstationarity is likely to be a response to some kind of recent anthropogenic forcing)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Mann then said (perhaps in reply to a query about bristlecones &#8211; my notes are unclear) that the western US was important to the EOF1; it was a “sweet spot”&#8217;? for estimating NH mean. No one on the panel asked for a further explanation of this. I checked this and was unable to confirm this claim; indeed, my calculations show the opposite. 5 of 6 EOF1 coefficients for the 6 gridcells from 112.5 to 122.5 W and 37.5-42.5N are less than the median (which includes the California bristlecone/foxtail sites) and the sixth is barely above the median. A “sweet sport”&#8217;? is at 7.5N; 52.5-67.5E. The lowish weights in this area are observable in the color-coded diagram in MBH98 itself.
</p></blockquote>
<p>There is also interesting  cold spot at Western Greenland (Mann&#8217;s grid point 969, 72.5 N  27.5 W), a place that responds negatively to the warming trend (described by TPC1). Can&#8217;t find data for that grid point from HadCRUT3. I&#8217;d like to find recent data for that grid,  as you note</p>
<blockquote><p>Whether the EOFs are stationary is a big question.</p></blockquote>
<p>(Of course, any nonstationarity is likely to be a response to some kind of recent anthropogenic forcing)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46231</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had a subscription, but cancelled it due to continued... well, if you live in the US and subscribe to NS, you&#039;ll understand.  Anyway, I think the subscription ran out last week so I can no longer access the article to verify comments in here.

However, that they would note Steve works &quot;in the oil industry&quot; is no surprise.  Late last year, they had an article on the religious supression of science, primarily targeted at the Bush administration.  The editorial made a few great points then rambled into the GW/Kyoto affair.  I&#039;m not sure what the latter has to do with religion, but it was apparent there was an ideological axe to grind.

Mark]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a subscription, but cancelled it due to continued&#8230; well, if you live in the US and subscribe to NS, you&#8217;ll understand.  Anyway, I think the subscription ran out last week so I can no longer access the article to verify comments in here.</p>
<p>However, that they would note Steve works &#8220;in the oil industry&#8221; is no surprise.  Late last year, they had an article on the religious supression of science, primarily targeted at the Bush administration.  The editorial made a few great points then rambled into the GW/Kyoto affair.  I&#8217;m not sure what the latter has to do with religion, but it was apparent there was an ideological axe to grind.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Fisher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46230</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Fisher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: New Scientist article. I&#039;ve read the print version. Coupla things. They note that Steve works in the &quot;oil industry&quot;. They suggest that UNIPCC TAR supports Manns work, but fail to acknowledge that Mann is the lead author. No mention of the cutoff of the proxy data that doesn&#039;t fit (A&amp;W). No mention of finding a hockey stick using red noise as input to the Mann method.

But despite all that, you have to give them this: they published something on it, which is more than most. Pity it&#039;s full of mistakes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: New Scientist article. I&#8217;ve read the print version. Coupla things. They note that Steve works in the &#8220;oil industry&#8221;. They suggest that UNIPCC TAR supports Manns work, but fail to acknowledge that Mann is the lead author. No mention of the cutoff of the proxy data that doesn&#8217;t fit (A&amp;W). No mention of finding a hockey stick using red noise as input to the Mann method.</p>
<p>But despite all that, you have to give them this: they published something on it, which is more than most. Pity it&#8217;s full of mistakes.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug L</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is also OT but breaking  news on a scientific controversy and perhaps even relevent.  The sighting of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker which was caught on film is now under dispute .

From a National Geographic article:

&quot;For their part, the original team that identified the bird as an ivory-bill dismisses the challenge to their finding in a response also published in tomorrow&#039;s Science&quot;

also

&quot;But David Sibley says the burden of proof is on the Cornell-led team. It&#039;s up to them, he says, to show that the species is not a pileated woodpecker. &quot;

Now if only Science and others would apply that standard to AGW! :-)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0316_060316_woodpecker_2.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is also OT but breaking  news on a scientific controversy and perhaps even relevent.  The sighting of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker which was caught on film is now under dispute .</p>
<p>From a National Geographic article:</p>
<p>&#8220;For their part, the original team that identified the bird as an ivory-bill dismisses the challenge to their finding in a response also published in tomorrow&#8217;s Science&#8221;</p>
<p>also</p>
<p>&#8220;But David Sibley says the burden of proof is on the Cornell-led team. It&#8217;s up to them, he says, to show that the species is not a pileated woodpecker. &#8221;</p>
<p>Now if only Science and others would apply that standard to AGW! <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0316_060316_woodpecker_2.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0316_060316_woodpecker_2.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: The Knowing One</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Knowing One]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 19:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tunguska is a bit off-topic for this blog, but if anyone is interested, what seems to be a good &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/aug252001/399.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;explanation&lt;/a&gt; for it was published by Walter Kundt in &lt;em&gt;Current Science&lt;/em&gt; [2001].

Very briefly, there was a large (natural) leak of natural gas.  The gas rose up until it reached equilibrium density with the atmosphere, then it was blown horizontally downwind&#8212;into a thunder storm.  The storm&#039;s electricity ignited the gas.  The flame&#039;s path followed the path of the gas: first horizontally, then vertically, to the source of the leak.  Then BANG.

Kundt describes how this explanation fits virtually all details that are known about Tunguska.  Yet not everyone has accepted the explanation, seemingly because it is not as exciting as most prior speculations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tunguska is a bit off-topic for this blog, but if anyone is interested, what seems to be a good <a href="http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/aug252001/399.pdf" rel="nofollow">explanation</a> for it was published by Walter Kundt in <em>Current Science</em> [2001].</p>
<p>Very briefly, there was a large (natural) leak of natural gas.  The gas rose up until it reached equilibrium density with the atmosphere, then it was blown horizontally downwind&mdash;into a thunder storm.  The storm&#8217;s electricity ignited the gas.  The flame&#8217;s path followed the path of the gas: first horizontally, then vertically, to the source of the leak.  Then BANG.</p>
<p>Kundt describes how this explanation fits virtually all details that are known about Tunguska.  Yet not everyone has accepted the explanation, seemingly because it is not as exciting as most prior speculations.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46227</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mann has a big problem.  He&#039;s the &#039;Boy Who Cried Wolf&#039;, and he&#039;s in trouble whether the Wolf shows up or not.
========================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mann has a big problem.  He&#8217;s the &#8216;Boy Who Cried Wolf&#8217;, and he&#8217;s in trouble whether the Wolf shows up or not.<br />
========================</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #32 - the New Scientist podcast featured an interview with Fred Pearce only.  Pretty much the same as the article.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #32 &#8211; the New Scientist podcast featured an interview with Fred Pearce only.  Pretty much the same as the article.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/03/16/mann-at-the-nas-panel/#comment-46225</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 03:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=588#comment-46225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve:

Figure 2 in your writeup (page 10 in the PowerPoint presentation) is just devastating.  If a result ain&#039;t in the simplest analysis, it probably ain&#039;t there at all.

This suggests another way to think about the MBH analysis.  Perhaps all it is doing is forcing the reconstruction to have an upward slope in the 20th century.

When you fit the reconstruction to an upward trend in the 20th century, the reconstruction will have an upward trend in the 20th century -- duh.  The rest of the reconstruction is just garbage tacked on to the beginning of the 20th century trend, and your simple average plot explains why: in the aggregate, with nothing to force it one way or the other, the proxies are just noise.

Further, MBH probably get their alleged skill only because the proxies have enough persistence that when you pick proxies with a localized trend, they retain some of that trend in nearby windows, so your model appears to have some skill in predicting the nearby trend.

Amazing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve:</p>
<p>Figure 2 in your writeup (page 10 in the PowerPoint presentation) is just devastating.  If a result ain&#8217;t in the simplest analysis, it probably ain&#8217;t there at all.</p>
<p>This suggests another way to think about the MBH analysis.  Perhaps all it is doing is forcing the reconstruction to have an upward slope in the 20th century.</p>
<p>When you fit the reconstruction to an upward trend in the 20th century, the reconstruction will have an upward trend in the 20th century &#8212; duh.  The rest of the reconstruction is just garbage tacked on to the beginning of the 20th century trend, and your simple average plot explains why: in the aggregate, with nothing to force it one way or the other, the proxies are just noise.</p>
<p>Further, MBH probably get their alleged skill only because the proxies have enough persistence that when you pick proxies with a localized trend, they retain some of that trend in nearby windows, so your model appears to have some skill in predicting the nearby trend.</p>
<p>Amazing.</p>
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