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	<title>Comments on: Annan on Hegerl et al</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Biggs</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Biggs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 20:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I&#039;d like to write the headline on this one. How about &#039;Climate alarmist alarmed at Nature&#039;s editorial policy.&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;d like to write the headline on this one. How about &#8216;Climate alarmist alarmed at Nature&#8217;s editorial policy.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: ET SidViscous</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51162</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ET SidViscous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 22:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Axtually the more I think of it.

Take a CO2 molecule and shove it into the muzzle of a particle accelerator, and shoot it at anotehr CO2 molecule.

Do you think you will get particle emmision? I&#039;ll bet money on it.

Granted a realitive low energy colision in the atmosphere has nowhere near that much energy. But if one of those molecules is already on the edge to dump a photon, well there you go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Axtually the more I think of it.</p>
<p>Take a CO2 molecule and shove it into the muzzle of a particle accelerator, and shoot it at anotehr CO2 molecule.</p>
<p>Do you think you will get particle emmision? I&#8217;ll bet money on it.</p>
<p>Granted a realitive low energy colision in the atmosphere has nowhere near that much energy. But if one of those molecules is already on the edge to dump a photon, well there you go.</p>
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		<title>By: ET SidViscous</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51161</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ET SidViscous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 22:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To clarify when I say collision there are mechanical as well as electromagnetic energies.

Compress two atoms at ground state, and attempt to overcome the electrical bands, as well as the strong and weak force of the concerned atoms (in the molecule) and you will release energy. You are converting mechanical force into electromagnetic force.

Think of the piezioelecric effect.

It all gets a bit hairy because your talking about the atomic level which is still not well understood, and even those bits that are get hairy when you start thinking of boundary terms, all atomic talk gets wonky.

Suffice to say if you mechanical collide to molecules, one of which is in a high energy state it is entirely likely that it will release a photon to reach ground. A mechanical force intiated the interaction which can cause an electrical or nuclear reaction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify when I say collision there are mechanical as well as electromagnetic energies.</p>
<p>Compress two atoms at ground state, and attempt to overcome the electrical bands, as well as the strong and weak force of the concerned atoms (in the molecule) and you will release energy. You are converting mechanical force into electromagnetic force.</p>
<p>Think of the piezioelecric effect.</p>
<p>It all gets a bit hairy because your talking about the atomic level which is still not well understood, and even those bits that are get hairy when you start thinking of boundary terms, all atomic talk gets wonky.</p>
<p>Suffice to say if you mechanical collide to molecules, one of which is in a high energy state it is entirely likely that it will release a photon to reach ground. A mechanical force intiated the interaction which can cause an electrical or nuclear reaction.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dardinger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Dardinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 22:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re:#32

But releasing the energy via collision is different than releasing it as a photon.  As I&#039;m sure you know from elementary physics, a charged body moving through a magnetic field can produce electromagnetic waves.  It depends on either the charged body rotating with a dipole moment or the magnetic field changing over time.  Most molecules in the atmosphere, in particular Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon don&#039;t have a dipole moment and thus can&#039;t release electromagnetic radiation by spinning in a field.  But if two molecules pass close by each other, their internal electric and magnetic fields will interact with each other and this can result in a circumstance where a photon can be released.  It&#039;s a bit tricky quantifying this however, at least for me.  You have to have conservation of momentum and the colliding molecules will have other restrictions.  You won&#039;t be able to treat things as a two-body problem since at least one of the molecules and usually both with have two atoms in it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re:#32</p>
<p>But releasing the energy via collision is different than releasing it as a photon.  As I&#8217;m sure you know from elementary physics, a charged body moving through a magnetic field can produce electromagnetic waves.  It depends on either the charged body rotating with a dipole moment or the magnetic field changing over time.  Most molecules in the atmosphere, in particular Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon don&#8217;t have a dipole moment and thus can&#8217;t release electromagnetic radiation by spinning in a field.  But if two molecules pass close by each other, their internal electric and magnetic fields will interact with each other and this can result in a circumstance where a photon can be released.  It&#8217;s a bit tricky quantifying this however, at least for me.  You have to have conservation of momentum and the colliding molecules will have other restrictions.  You won&#8217;t be able to treat things as a two-body problem since at least one of the molecules and usually both with have two atoms in it.</p>
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		<title>By: ET SidViscous</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51159</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ET SidViscous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 22:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51159</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;ll have to ask a quantum mechanic, but it can happen spontaneously, or it can be triggered. I.E. Lasers. energize the atoms, then send a phonton through and you get a cascade.

Same thing here, if they are heated and colide, it is very likely they could let a photon go.

But if you wan&#039;t me to prove it with a Quantum mechanic equation, sorry. But we do know the energy has to be released eventually so the molecule can reach ground state, a collision can initiate that, the molecule being in an unstable state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ll have to ask a quantum mechanic, but it can happen spontaneously, or it can be triggered. I.E. Lasers. energize the atoms, then send a phonton through and you get a cascade.</p>
<p>Same thing here, if they are heated and colide, it is very likely they could let a photon go.</p>
<p>But if you wan&#8217;t me to prove it with a Quantum mechanic equation, sorry. But we do know the energy has to be released eventually so the molecule can reach ground state, a collision can initiate that, the molecule being in an unstable state.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51158</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 22:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, but does quantum mechanics predict a release of energy when two molecules attempt to bump into each other?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but does quantum mechanics predict a release of energy when two molecules attempt to bump into each other?</p>
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		<title>By: ET SidViscous</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ET SidViscous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 21:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kinetic is the initial source. The molecules themselves of course have an energy state, what it is depending on whether or not they have absorbed energy from other sources.

Any gas molecule has an energy potential, mainly because by definiton it has to be above absolute 0.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kinetic is the initial source. The molecules themselves of course have an energy state, what it is depending on whether or not they have absorbed energy from other sources.</p>
<p>Any gas molecule has an energy potential, mainly because by definiton it has to be above absolute 0.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 20:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave:  are you sure that radiation can occur due to two molecules approaching each other.  Where does the energy come from?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave:  are you sure that radiation can occur due to two molecules approaching each other.  Where does the energy come from?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dardinger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Dardinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 May 2006 21:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I&#039;m going a bit on general principles (and will gladly accept correction based on more than hand-waving).  I tried looking a while back on-line to get info on the black-body radiation emitted by the atmosphere and got nowhere.  But the point is that anything will emit black-body radiation at frequencies depending on the temperature.  The mechanism is easy to figure for solids.  For gases it&#039;s more difficult.  As I said in the last message, a symmetric gas can&#039;t emit electromagnetic radiation as an individual molecule because there&#039;s no dipole to work with.  But when two molecules collide, there will be a dipole set up when they approach each other, and this will occasionally result in radiation being emitted.  Indeed there must be radiation emitted in such cases with some probability.  It was precisely the problem of why atoms didn&#039;t collapse by the orbiting electrons emitting radiation which was one of the things which led to the formation of the quantum mechanics.    In essence they resulted in the charge of the electron being smeared out over the orbit and thus not having a dipole moment.  But two molecules approaching, whether or not they are identical (unless both are the same and monoatomic), will set up a rotating dipole which may or may not emit during the time they&#039;re in close proximity.  I&#039;m not saying the emission is of real high intensity, but given the small relative concentration of CO2, for instance, it doesn&#039;t have to be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m going a bit on general principles (and will gladly accept correction based on more than hand-waving).  I tried looking a while back on-line to get info on the black-body radiation emitted by the atmosphere and got nowhere.  But the point is that anything will emit black-body radiation at frequencies depending on the temperature.  The mechanism is easy to figure for solids.  For gases it&#8217;s more difficult.  As I said in the last message, a symmetric gas can&#8217;t emit electromagnetic radiation as an individual molecule because there&#8217;s no dipole to work with.  But when two molecules collide, there will be a dipole set up when they approach each other, and this will occasionally result in radiation being emitted.  Indeed there must be radiation emitted in such cases with some probability.  It was precisely the problem of why atoms didn&#8217;t collapse by the orbiting electrons emitting radiation which was one of the things which led to the formation of the quantum mechanics.    In essence they resulted in the charge of the electron being smeared out over the orbit and thus not having a dipole moment.  But two molecules approaching, whether or not they are identical (unless both are the same and monoatomic), will set up a rotating dipole which may or may not emit during the time they&#8217;re in close proximity.  I&#8217;m not saying the emission is of real high intensity, but given the small relative concentration of CO2, for instance, it doesn&#8217;t have to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/05/12/annan-on-hegerl-et-al/#comment-51154</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 May 2006 14:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=670#comment-51154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re your last sentence, I agree that the effect is small; I&#039;m just highlighting that the altitude-heightening argument reverses at a certain point.

How do you get &quot;black body radiation&quot; from the atmosphere? I agree that there is bumping of molecules but the radiation can only come from CO2 molecules, water vapor molecules and clouds.

The lapse rate from a pure radiative model would be much steeper than observed.  Convection (especially water vapor evaporation and condensation) reduces the lapse rate. So the temperature of CO2 molecules and water vapor molecules at height is not as low as under a pure radiative model.

I&#039;ll try to write up a post on my thoughts within the next month. Otherwise, let me leave it at that as I&#039;m trying to write some other material right now. The topic is interesting but I&#039;ll have to leave my discussion for another day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re your last sentence, I agree that the effect is small; I&#8217;m just highlighting that the altitude-heightening argument reverses at a certain point.</p>
<p>How do you get &#8220;black body radiation&#8221; from the atmosphere? I agree that there is bumping of molecules but the radiation can only come from CO2 molecules, water vapor molecules and clouds.</p>
<p>The lapse rate from a pure radiative model would be much steeper than observed.  Convection (especially water vapor evaporation and condensation) reduces the lapse rate. So the temperature of CO2 molecules and water vapor molecules at height is not as low as under a pure radiative model.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to write up a post on my thoughts within the next month. Otherwise, let me leave it at that as I&#8217;m trying to write some other material right now. The topic is interesting but I&#8217;ll have to leave my discussion for another day.</p>
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