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	<title>Comments on: Plant Deposits at Quelccaya</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Quelccaya Plant Deposits Again &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-340583</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quelccaya Plant Deposits Again &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2012 13:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-340583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Lane here noticed a couple of other useful references on Quelccaya and related the anecdotal information to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lane here noticed a couple of other useful references on Quelccaya and related the anecdotal information to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Willis Eschenbach</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60448</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Willis Eschenbach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lee, the Idso&#039;s site consists of a series of analyses of scientific articles about climate.

Now, you may not like their analyses. And you may not like their not linking to all of the papers mentioned (although many of them are not available on the internet without a subscription to the relevant journal).

But the fact remains that it is the only site of its type, that pulls together a huge number of scientific papers about climate, with full and complete bibliographic references to each paper mentioned.

You say you don&#039;t recommend it ... so ... what do you recommend? IF someone asks &quot;what papers have been written on (say) how plants respond to increased CO2&quot; ... where do you send them that is &quot;much better integrated and useful&quot;?

The part that disturbs me about the people who criticize the Idso site is that they find it necessary to attack the Idsos motives, and can find little wrong with the science. You have made a number of allegations about the site, how they disconnect facts and obscure connections, without a single example ...

Now, who is disconnecting facts and obscuring connections here? ... Can&#039;t be you, because you haven&#039;t presented any facts, just allegations ... but you sure have obscured any connections ...

w.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee, the Idso&#8217;s site consists of a series of analyses of scientific articles about climate.</p>
<p>Now, you may not like their analyses. And you may not like their not linking to all of the papers mentioned (although many of them are not available on the internet without a subscription to the relevant journal).</p>
<p>But the fact remains that it is the only site of its type, that pulls together a huge number of scientific papers about climate, with full and complete bibliographic references to each paper mentioned.</p>
<p>You say you don&#8217;t recommend it &#8230; so &#8230; what do you recommend? IF someone asks &#8220;what papers have been written on (say) how plants respond to increased CO2&#8243; &#8230; where do you send them that is &#8220;much better integrated and useful&#8221;?</p>
<p>The part that disturbs me about the people who criticize the Idso site is that they find it necessary to attack the Idsos motives, and can find little wrong with the science. You have made a number of allegations about the site, how they disconnect facts and obscure connections, without a single example &#8230;</p>
<p>Now, who is disconnecting facts and obscuring connections here? &#8230; Can&#8217;t be you, because you haven&#8217;t presented any facts, just allegations &#8230; but you sure have obscured any connections &#8230;</p>
<p>w.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fair enough, Lee.  But it is a good place to start your searches, if you know as little as I do about climate science.  And I am sure there ARE some mistakes in the Idsos&#039; documents and approaches to the subjects.  They are probably not super human beings, like you seem to think you are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, Lee.  But it is a good place to start your searches, if you know as little as I do about climate science.  And I am sure there ARE some mistakes in the Idsos&#8217; documents and approaches to the subjects.  They are probably not super human beings, like you seem to think you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Willis and Jerry - BS.

I already mentioned that I already knew that paper, because I HAVE BEEN looking and working at this stuff. And yes,t eh paper is subjec tto some valid criticisms - which it seems theIdsos dont bother to make, unless its hiden in another one of thoe disconnected factoids, and I&#039;d have to go searchign to see if it exists.

 My pointis that the site disconnects facts one from another, and then parcels out the disconnected facts without making the connectin to related facts, either by link or evenmy reasonable mention. By doing so, they not only make it harder to get to the related facts (an issue, but not a major one - I do knwo how to do a query) but make it often impossible based on waht they say to even know that there ARE related facts, without doing what basicaly amounts to blind hunting for things that might or might not exist.

If they want to create an internet site that obscures the connections between factoids, so be it - as Jerry points out, they have the right to do what they want without consulting me.  IMO, it makes their work nearly useless for intellectual inquiry, and misleading, and I wont personally bother to waste my time there when it is so easy to find the informatinisn much better integrated and useful fashion - nor will I recommend it to others for similar reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willis and Jerry &#8211; BS.</p>
<p>I already mentioned that I already knew that paper, because I HAVE BEEN looking and working at this stuff. And yes,t eh paper is subjec tto some valid criticisms &#8211; which it seems theIdsos dont bother to make, unless its hiden in another one of thoe disconnected factoids, and I&#8217;d have to go searchign to see if it exists.</p>
<p> My pointis that the site disconnects facts one from another, and then parcels out the disconnected facts without making the connectin to related facts, either by link or evenmy reasonable mention. By doing so, they not only make it harder to get to the related facts (an issue, but not a major one &#8211; I do knwo how to do a query) but make it often impossible based on waht they say to even know that there ARE related facts, without doing what basicaly amounts to blind hunting for things that might or might not exist.</p>
<p>If they want to create an internet site that obscures the connections between factoids, so be it &#8211; as Jerry points out, they have the right to do what they want without consulting me.  IMO, it makes their work nearly useless for intellectual inquiry, and misleading, and I wont personally bother to waste my time there when it is so easy to find the informatinisn much better integrated and useful fashion &#8211; nor will I recommend it to others for similar reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: JMS</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JMS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, come on Willis, this is the internet and the Idso&#039;s clearly know how to use hyperlinks.  There&#039;s a reason they don&#039;t make it easy...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, come on Willis, this is the internet and the Idso&#8217;s clearly know how to use hyperlinks.  There&#8217;s a reason they don&#8217;t make it easy&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JerryB</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JerryB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How inconsiderate of the Idsos to link to their articles on their website in the manner that they prefer, rather than consulting Lee first to elicit his preferences so as possibly to abate some of his whining.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How inconsiderate of the Idsos to link to their articles on their website in the manner that they prefer, rather than consulting Lee first to elicit his preferences so as possibly to abate some of his whining.</p>
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		<title>By: Willis Eschenbach</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60443</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Willis Eschenbach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Man, as bad as the Thomson study is, I wouldn&#039;t link to it either ...

Lee, you seem to want to be spoonfed this stuff, and you complain if the links aren&#039;t there. Sure, it would be nice if the link were there, but if it&#039;s not, me, I just go find it, the Idsos don&#039;t have to do all my work for me.

w.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, as bad as the Thomson study is, I wouldn&#8217;t link to it either &#8230;</p>
<p>Lee, you seem to want to be spoonfed this stuff, and you complain if the links aren&#8217;t there. Sure, it would be nice if the link were there, but if it&#8217;s not, me, I just go find it, the Idsos don&#8217;t have to do all my work for me.</p>
<p>w.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lee: in fact, you will notice that the summary/link to the Huascaran glacier points out CLEARLY that the data show tht the MWP was cooler than today.  Now, the Idsos could have omitted this part, if they wanted to mislead people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee: in fact, you will notice that the summary/link to the Huascaran glacier points out CLEARLY that the data show tht the MWP was cooler than today.  Now, the Idsos could have omitted this part, if they wanted to mislead people.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 21:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sigh...
&quot;They noticably do NOT link to &lt;b&gt;the other articles about the other glaciers in the study, nor to any article about the entire history and its conclusions,&lt;/b&gt; nor to the abstract of the study.&quot;

Emphasis added.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sigh&#8230;<br />
&#8220;They noticably do NOT link to <b>the other articles about the other glaciers in the study, nor to any article about the entire history and its conclusions,</b> nor to the abstract of the study.&#8221;</p>
<p>Emphasis added.</p>
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		<title>By: JerryB</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/15/plant-deposits-at-quelccaya/#comment-60440</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JerryB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 21:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=783#comment-60440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Thompson et al paper reported data for six locations; the Idso&#039;s website presents data on each of those six locations, by location:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_dasuopu.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; dasuopu&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_dunde.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; dunde&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_guliya.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; guliya&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_huascaran.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; huascaran&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_quelccaya.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; quelccaya&lt;/a&gt;

and

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_sajama.jsp?&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; sajama&lt;/a&gt; .

They didn&#039;t pick any cherries.

One of the locations is the subject of this thread, and jae linked to the Idso article on that location.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Thompson et al paper reported data for six locations; the Idso&#8217;s website presents data on each of those six locations, by location:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_dasuopu.jsp" rel="nofollow"> dasuopu</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_dunde.jsp" rel="nofollow"> dunde</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_guliya.jsp" rel="nofollow"> guliya</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_huascaran.jsp" rel="nofollow"> huascaran</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_quelccaya.jsp" rel="nofollow"> quelccaya</a></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/data/mwp/studies/l2_sajama.jsp?" rel="nofollow"> sajama</a> .</p>
<p>They didn&#8217;t pick any cherries.</p>
<p>One of the locations is the subject of this thread, and jae linked to the Idso article on that location.</p>
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