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	<title>Comments on: Bender&#039;s Plot of Hurricane Count</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Hank Roberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61695</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hank Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 20:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=803
seems to be a continuation from this thread p790]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=803" rel="nofollow">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=803</a><br />
seems to be a continuation from this thread p790</p>
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		<title>By: J. Sperry</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61694</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Sperry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61694</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry about the late reply.  I haven&#039;t visited here recently.

#99 (Steve Bloom) -- I&#039;m not sure about the progress of reanalysis for HURDAT, or the other sources of data for that matter.  I gather from your comment (&quot;available in easy spreadsheet format&quot;) that this is why I&#039;ve only used HURDAT.  However, to correct errors noted below, I&#039;ve supplemented it with data from UNISYS.  However UNISYS has its own inconsistencies with HURDAT from 1911-1913 (5 missing storms?).

#115 (Judith Curry) -- The 1915, data starts on September 7, and therefore misses Tropical Storm #1, Hurricane #2, and most of Hurricane #3 (82% by energy).  Both hurricanes were category 3.

For 1926, I corrected the storm number for Hurricane #5 (originally listed as #4, so there was one long #4 over two time sequences).  For 1972, I corrected the day on Sept 8 for Hurricane Dawn (originally listed as Sept 0).  There were other corrections to pressure and location which wouldn&#039;t affect my analysis.  I update my data for post-2004 storms using the National Hurricane Center reports (TCR).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the late reply.  I haven&#8217;t visited here recently.</p>
<p>#99 (Steve Bloom) &#8212; I&#8217;m not sure about the progress of reanalysis for HURDAT, or the other sources of data for that matter.  I gather from your comment (&#8220;available in easy spreadsheet format&#8221;) that this is why I&#8217;ve only used HURDAT.  However, to correct errors noted below, I&#8217;ve supplemented it with data from UNISYS.  However UNISYS has its own inconsistencies with HURDAT from 1911-1913 (5 missing storms?).</p>
<p>#115 (Judith Curry) &#8212; The 1915, data starts on September 7, and therefore misses Tropical Storm #1, Hurricane #2, and most of Hurricane #3 (82% by energy).  Both hurricanes were category 3.</p>
<p>For 1926, I corrected the storm number for Hurricane #5 (originally listed as #4, so there was one long #4 over two time sequences).  For 1972, I corrected the day on Sept 8 for Hurricane Dawn (originally listed as Sept 0).  There were other corrections to pressure and location which wouldn&#8217;t affect my analysis.  I update my data for post-2004 storms using the National Hurricane Center reports (TCR).</p>
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		<title>By: Spence_UK</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61693</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spence_UK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 08:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #238

Bender, I agree.  I guess there are two possibilities that spring to mind:

1. Unknown linear forcings that operate on long timescales

- or -

2. Coupled non-linear response to linear forcings even if we do know about them, producing a time series with fractal properties as an output

In either case, a 1/f null hypothesis would be appropriate (fractional gaussian noise?).  I haven&#039;t read through it in detail, but a cursory glance would suggest Professor Liu&#039;s work makes it difficult to ignore this issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #238</p>
<p>Bender, I agree.  I guess there are two possibilities that spring to mind:</p>
<p>1. Unknown linear forcings that operate on long timescales</p>
<p>- or -</p>
<p>2. Coupled non-linear response to linear forcings even if we do know about them, producing a time series with fractal properties as an output</p>
<p>In either case, a 1/f null hypothesis would be appropriate (fractional gaussian noise?).  I haven&#8217;t read through it in detail, but a cursory glance would suggest Professor Liu&#8217;s work makes it difficult to ignore this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61692</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 17:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61692</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #235
I guess the question would be: if you get natural self-similiarity in the absence of various slow-changing forcing processes, and you want to estimate the additional effects of those various forcings, then what kind of null model do you use for the background variability. I proposed the 1/f noise model (I believe it was in reply to UC on ARMA models) to help account for the nonstationarities that seem to be forever increasing as you increase the time-scale of observation. But maybe it is more appropriate for the self-similarity issue you are mentioning.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #235<br />
I guess the question would be: if you get natural self-similiarity in the absence of various slow-changing forcing processes, and you want to estimate the additional effects of those various forcings, then what kind of null model do you use for the background variability. I proposed the 1/f noise model (I believe it was in reply to UC on ARMA models) to help account for the nonstationarities that seem to be forever increasing as you increase the time-scale of observation. But maybe it is more appropriate for the self-similarity issue you are mentioning.</p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #210
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don&#039;t think a lack of information is the problem&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Where do you think political motivation comes from, if not information?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #210</p>
<blockquote><p>I don&#8217;t think a lack of information is the problem</p></blockquote>
<p>Where do you think political motivation comes from, if not information?</p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61690</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #232
Not at all whiney. When writing the 1/f noise comment I actually wanted to link back to your statement but couldn&#039;t find it. Couldn&#039;t remember what thread it was in. Now I can&#039;t find my 1/f noise statement! Can&#039;t even remember what thread it was in. Sigh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #232<br />
Not at all whiney. When writing the 1/f noise comment I actually wanted to link back to your statement but couldn&#8217;t find it. Couldn&#8217;t remember what thread it was in. Now I can&#8217;t find my 1/f noise statement! Can&#8217;t even remember what thread it was in. Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: Spence_UK</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spence_UK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks bender - I hope comment #232 didn&#039;t come across too whiney, it wasn&#039;t supposed to be!! ;)

The topic of self-similarity interests me in this case, but the problem is the available data spans too short a time period, so it seems difficult to assess the issue.  One of my early questions (last para, comment #141) was whether there was much in the peer-reviewed literature in terms of such an assessment, and the RPSr. article interests me because it is an example of where such issues have been considered.  It does seem that there is at least one paper that supports the notion that the hurricane count does display self similar behaviour.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks bender &#8211; I hope comment #232 didn&#8217;t come across too whiney, it wasn&#8217;t supposed to be!! <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The topic of self-similarity interests me in this case, but the problem is the available data spans too short a time period, so it seems difficult to assess the issue.  One of my early questions (last para, comment #141) was whether there was much in the peer-reviewed literature in terms of such an assessment, and the RPSr. article interests me because it is an example of where such issues have been considered.  It does seem that there is at least one paper that supports the notion that the hurricane count does display self similar behaviour.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #232
From that Pielke hurricane thread:

&lt;blockquote&gt;As illustrated by Professor Liu&#039;s research, the use of linear trends as a tool to attribute the reason for climate variability and change (i.e. human and natural) and their extrapolation into the future to communicate hurricane and other climate risks to policymakers, is seriously inadequate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Bingo. If the use of linear trend analysis (top-right panel in opening graphic) is &lt;strong&gt;inadequate&lt;/strong&gt;, then is a distorted analysis with no statistics (top-left) &lt;strong&gt;better&lt;/strong&gt;? In some contexts, such as a newspaper, possibly. In a scientific or science-policy paper - &lt;strong&gt;NO&lt;/strong&gt;!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #232<br />
From that Pielke hurricane thread:</p>
<blockquote><p>As illustrated by Professor Liu&#8217;s research, the use of linear trends as a tool to attribute the reason for climate variability and change (i.e. human and natural) and their extrapolation into the future to communicate hurricane and other climate risks to policymakers, is seriously inadequate.</p></blockquote>
<p>Bingo. If the use of linear trend analysis (top-right panel in opening graphic) is <strong>inadequate</strong>, then is a distorted analysis with no statistics (top-left) <strong>better</strong>? In some contexts, such as a newspaper, possibly. In a scientific or science-policy paper &#8211; <strong>NO</strong>!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61687</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Somewhere along the way I made reference to 1/f noise models. I didn&#039;t link back to your comment, Spence_UK, but your comment is exactly what triggered that thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somewhere along the way I made reference to 1/f noise models. I didn&#8217;t link back to your comment, Spence_UK, but your comment is exactly what triggered that thought.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Spence_UK</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/23/benders-plot-of-hurricane-count/#comment-61686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spence_UK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=790#comment-61686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Waaay back up this thread somewhere I tried to introduce the possibility of self-similar behaviour in the hurricane count statistics.  Following on this theme, I note that &lt;a href=&quot;http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/2006/09/07/natural-hurricane-variability/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Roger Pielke Sr.&#039;s blog&lt;/a&gt; has a discussion today on the natural variability of hurricanes, and their behaviour on different timescales.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Waaay back up this thread somewhere I tried to introduce the possibility of self-similar behaviour in the hurricane count statistics.  Following on this theme, I note that <a href="http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.edu/2006/09/07/natural-hurricane-variability/" rel="nofollow">Roger Pielke Sr.&#8217;s blog</a> has a discussion today on the natural variability of hurricanes, and their behaviour on different timescales.</p>
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