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	<title>Comments on: Tephras in Ecuador</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61775</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2006 01:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61775</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The susceptibility of C14-dating to the effects of depletion and enrichment should require extra care in collection and certification of results.  The more samples the better. And anomalous results ought to be revealed so that the conclusions can be assigned some level of plausibility.  I&#039;d accept one out of 20 or even 10 samples with a weird date, but more than that really begins to erode confidence. Rarely are calculated dates put in context with this information.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The susceptibility of C14-dating to the effects of depletion and enrichment should require extra care in collection and certification of results.  The more samples the better. And anomalous results ought to be revealed so that the conclusions can be assigned some level of plausibility.  I&#8217;d accept one out of 20 or even 10 samples with a weird date, but more than that really begins to erode confidence. Rarely are calculated dates put in context with this information.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Frank</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61774</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#10 -- A thought occurred to me that because a several-thousand year old glacier should contain ice enclosing 14-C depleted CO2, at its bottom, then from the description of ice-melting at Greenland, it seems likely that melt water percolating through the glacier and emerging from the bottom would be enriched in low 14-C bicarbonate.

If this was taken up by local plants, then they would be endemically and systematically low in 14-C and would give anomalously old ages when tested. One might test for this by looking at 14-C in living plants serially further from the bottom of glaciers.

It might even be true that the atomsphere immediately around melt streams emerging from glaciers might be low in 14-C CO2 because of the equilibrium between the local atmospheric CO2 and the 14-C depleted dissolved CO2 and bicarbonate in the melt waters. If true, that would also facilitate low 14-C plants around glacier margins.

Of course, the older the glacier, the more 14-C depleted the emerging melt water, and the more anomalously old-seeming the local plants.

The same melt-percolation process may explain the low 14-C in the waters around Antractica and would predict 14-C depleted waters around Greenland, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#10 &#8212; A thought occurred to me that because a several-thousand year old glacier should contain ice enclosing 14-C depleted CO2, at its bottom, then from the description of ice-melting at Greenland, it seems likely that melt water percolating through the glacier and emerging from the bottom would be enriched in low 14-C bicarbonate.</p>
<p>If this was taken up by local plants, then they would be endemically and systematically low in 14-C and would give anomalously old ages when tested. One might test for this by looking at 14-C in living plants serially further from the bottom of glaciers.</p>
<p>It might even be true that the atomsphere immediately around melt streams emerging from glaciers might be low in 14-C CO2 because of the equilibrium between the local atmospheric CO2 and the 14-C depleted dissolved CO2 and bicarbonate in the melt waters. If true, that would also facilitate low 14-C plants around glacier margins.</p>
<p>Of course, the older the glacier, the more 14-C depleted the emerging melt water, and the more anomalously old-seeming the local plants.</p>
<p>The same melt-percolation process may explain the low 14-C in the waters around Antractica and would predict 14-C depleted waters around Greenland, too.</p>
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		<title>By: welikerocks</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[welikerocks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you #8,  I spent a good amount of time reading yesterday too.

I read about Lichenometric-dating curves.
As in this abstract here:

&quot;Little Ice Age&#039; glacier variations in Jotunheimen, southern Norway: a study in regionally controlled lichenometric dating of recessional moraines with implications for climate and lichen growth rates

http://tinyurl.com/hfwud

lichen is a really interesting organism/plant whatever it is!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you #8,  I spent a good amount of time reading yesterday too.</p>
<p>I read about Lichenometric-dating curves.<br />
As in this abstract here:</p>
<p>&#8220;Little Ice Age&#8217; glacier variations in Jotunheimen, southern Norway: a study in regionally controlled lichenometric dating of recessional moraines with implications for climate and lichen growth rates</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/hfwud" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/hfwud</a></p>
<p>lichen is a really interesting organism/plant whatever it is!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61772</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s interesting to see these anomalies develop. It&#039;s remarkable how relatively few samples are dateable to the last millennium and one wonders whether this might be an artifact of problems with a reservoir effect in the radiocarbon. Maybe everything&#039;s OK, but when you see a variety of weird reservoir-affected results, one wonders as to possible over-confidence in the calibrated date error bars.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting to see these anomalies develop. It&#8217;s remarkable how relatively few samples are dateable to the last millennium and one wonders whether this might be an artifact of problems with a reservoir effect in the radiocarbon. Maybe everything&#8217;s OK, but when you see a variety of weird reservoir-affected results, one wonders as to possible over-confidence in the calibrated date error bars.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Frank</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61771</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61771</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#1&amp;2 -- Several years ago I found literature warnings of incorrect carbon dating. Three papers,[1-3] for example, showed that &lt;em&gt;living&lt;/em&gt; fresh water molluscs could take up 14-C depleted carbon when incorporating ancient humus leached into ground water and then into streams, or when ancient humus was metabolized or oxidized to CO2 and taken up into shells as dissolved bicarbonate. The shells of these snails showed anomalously large ages.

A really strange report also turned up about mummified seals in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.answers.com/topic/antarctica-map-png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Victoria Land, Antarctica&lt;/a&gt;, that dated out to between 615 through 4,600 years,[4] even though the frozen tissues could not have survived that long.  The author mentioned that, &quot;&lt;em&gt;antarctic sea water has significantly lower carbon-14 activity than accepted as the world standard. Therefore, radiocarbon dating of marine organisms yields apparent dates that are older than true ages, but by an unknown and possibly variable amount.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;, and went on to mention that, &quot;&lt;em&gt;A seal freshly killed at McMurdo had an apparent age of 1,300 years.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

[1] M. L. Keith and G. M. Anderson (1963) &quot;Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious Results with Mollusc Shells&quot; Science 141, 634-636.
[2] M. Rubin and D. W. Taylor (1963) Radiocarbon Activity of Shells from Living Clams and Snails&quot; Science 141, 637.
[3] A. C. Riggs (1984) &quot;Major Carbon-14 Deficiency in Modern Snail Shells from Southern Nevada Springs&quot; Science 224, 58-61.
[4] W. Dort, Jr. (1971) &quot;Mummified seals of southern Victoria Land&quot; Antarctic Journal VI(5) September-October 1971, pp. 210-211.

One wonders about the generality of regional deficiencies of 14-C, if one such can occur in a large-scale stirred body of water like the antarctic sea; namely, whether adventitious regional deficiencies can occur or have occurred elsewhere for region-specific reasons, which would cause later dating to be experimentally correct but physically wrong.  Perhaps one could calibrate a soil column to find out.

The article about the seals wandered into strange territory, by the way, discussing &quot;numerous seal-bodies&quot; of seal pups that apparently had wandered far inland, into the dry valleys of Victoria Land, where they froze to death and were then slowly ablated away by ice and sand during wind storms.  The journal-cover featured a picture of one such seal, half gone on a pedestal of wind-sculpted, body-fluid-containing ice. It was frozen in a rear-body up-turned curve, and was fully 60 km from McMurdo sound. Some seals had managed to climb 1200 meter scarps! The mind boggles at imagining that journey.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#1&amp;2 &#8212; Several years ago I found literature warnings of incorrect carbon dating. Three papers,[1-3] for example, showed that <em>living</em> fresh water molluscs could take up 14-C depleted carbon when incorporating ancient humus leached into ground water and then into streams, or when ancient humus was metabolized or oxidized to CO2 and taken up into shells as dissolved bicarbonate. The shells of these snails showed anomalously large ages.</p>
<p>A really strange report also turned up about mummified seals in <a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/antarctica-map-png" rel="nofollow">Victoria Land, Antarctica</a>, that dated out to between 615 through 4,600 years,[4] even though the frozen tissues could not have survived that long.  The author mentioned that, &#8220;<em>antarctic sea water has significantly lower carbon-14 activity than accepted as the world standard. Therefore, radiocarbon dating of marine organisms yields apparent dates that are older than true ages, but by an unknown and possibly variable amount.</em>&#8220;, and went on to mention that, &#8220;<em>A seal freshly killed at McMurdo had an apparent age of 1,300 years.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>[1] M. L. Keith and G. M. Anderson (1963) &#8220;Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious Results with Mollusc Shells&#8221; Science 141, 634-636.<br />
[2] M. Rubin and D. W. Taylor (1963) Radiocarbon Activity of Shells from Living Clams and Snails&#8221; Science 141, 637.<br />
[3] A. C. Riggs (1984) &#8220;Major Carbon-14 Deficiency in Modern Snail Shells from Southern Nevada Springs&#8221; Science 224, 58-61.<br />
[4] W. Dort, Jr. (1971) &#8220;Mummified seals of southern Victoria Land&#8221; Antarctic Journal VI(5) September-October 1971, pp. 210-211.</p>
<p>One wonders about the generality of regional deficiencies of 14-C, if one such can occur in a large-scale stirred body of water like the antarctic sea; namely, whether adventitious regional deficiencies can occur or have occurred elsewhere for region-specific reasons, which would cause later dating to be experimentally correct but physically wrong.  Perhaps one could calibrate a soil column to find out.</p>
<p>The article about the seals wandered into strange territory, by the way, discussing &#8220;numerous seal-bodies&#8221; of seal pups that apparently had wandered far inland, into the dry valleys of Victoria Land, where they froze to death and were then slowly ablated away by ice and sand during wind storms.  The journal-cover featured a picture of one such seal, half gone on a pedestal of wind-sculpted, body-fluid-containing ice. It was frozen in a rear-body up-turned curve, and was fully 60 km from McMurdo sound. Some seals had managed to climb 1200 meter scarps! The mind boggles at imagining that journey.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61770</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#3 is right that most plants take up atmospheric carbon, but exceptions would be aquatic (particularly submerged) plants whose carbon source would be dissolved in the water and conceivabley could come from atmospheric, biotic (fish respiration), and even geologic (CaCO3) sources.  The proportions of each would depend on local conditions.  It&#039;s certainly possible there could be significant contamination problems post-mortem as well from the activities of fungi and animals bringing in additional carbon of unknown age.  I&#039;d prefer samples from the innermost rings of old stumps over any aquatic plant.

#6 - the ability to clone plants makes aging individual stems without annual rings somewhat pointless.  I once saw the rather rare flowering of a night-blooming Cereus cutting that came from an original plant that was living over 100 years ago.  The cutting only had been growing on its own for a decade or so and I don&#039;t know how many &quot;generations&quot; removed from the original.  Realize however that the carbon in the young cutting was incorporated recently and very little if any of the original plant&#039;s carbon still resided in it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3 is right that most plants take up atmospheric carbon, but exceptions would be aquatic (particularly submerged) plants whose carbon source would be dissolved in the water and conceivabley could come from atmospheric, biotic (fish respiration), and even geologic (CaCO3) sources.  The proportions of each would depend on local conditions.  It&#8217;s certainly possible there could be significant contamination problems post-mortem as well from the activities of fungi and animals bringing in additional carbon of unknown age.  I&#8217;d prefer samples from the innermost rings of old stumps over any aquatic plant.</p>
<p>#6 &#8211; the ability to clone plants makes aging individual stems without annual rings somewhat pointless.  I once saw the rather rare flowering of a night-blooming Cereus cutting that came from an original plant that was living over 100 years ago.  The cutting only had been growing on its own for a decade or so and I don&#8217;t know how many &#8220;generations&#8221; removed from the original.  Realize however that the carbon in the young cutting was incorporated recently and very little if any of the original plant&#8217;s carbon still resided in it.</p>
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		<title>By: welikerocks</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[welikerocks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I mean spore not spoor. Sorry!

Spoor: tracks, droppings from a wild animal.

Spore: reproductive body produced by mosses]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean spore not spoor. Sorry!</p>
<p>Spoor: tracks, droppings from a wild animal.</p>
<p>Spore: reproductive body produced by mosses</p>
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		<title>By: welikerocks</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[welikerocks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I keep thinking about plants I have that I started from pieces from my grandmother&#039;s garden over 30 yrs ago.  Where ever I have moved I&#039;ve brought pieces and restarted new plants. Many times but just sticking a succulant leaf in the ground , or even a stem, and not even a stem with roots.  I don&#039;t know whether to say they are 30 yr old plants or not? :)

So, I wonder does how a plant propagates or if a species has the ability to lie dormant, factor in or not in the carbon dating of plants?  (ex: do spoors survive in ice?)  I realize the timespans are huge and this might be a ridiculous thought on my part.  I would think, no it doesn&#039;t, because the carbon signature is made during it&#039;s growing into a full plant.   I just keep thinking about spoors rolling around in a glaciers and moving ice waiting to thaw out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep thinking about plants I have that I started from pieces from my grandmother&#8217;s garden over 30 yrs ago.  Where ever I have moved I&#8217;ve brought pieces and restarted new plants. Many times but just sticking a succulant leaf in the ground , or even a stem, and not even a stem with roots.  I don&#8217;t know whether to say they are 30 yr old plants or not? <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>So, I wonder does how a plant propagates or if a species has the ability to lie dormant, factor in or not in the carbon dating of plants?  (ex: do spoors survive in ice?)  I realize the timespans are huge and this might be a ridiculous thought on my part.  I would think, no it doesn&#8217;t, because the carbon signature is made during it&#8217;s growing into a full plant.   I just keep thinking about spoors rolling around in a glaciers and moving ice waiting to thaw out.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Howard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#3 Armand Thanks.  You have motivated me to look at the carbon cycle in soil.  Still looking.  It seems the food web concept is quite complex and very interesting to the subject at hand.  I&#039;ll see if I can dig up anything useful either way.  Now that global warming threads are running to ground, it is finally becomming interesting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3 Armand Thanks.  You have motivated me to look at the carbon cycle in soil.  Still looking.  It seems the food web concept is quite complex and very interesting to the subject at hand.  I&#8217;ll see if I can dig up anything useful either way.  Now that global warming threads are running to ground, it is finally becomming interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2006/08/25/tephras-in-ecuador/#comment-61766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=793#comment-61766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: #3 - What about hard water being taken up by the roots?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: #3 &#8211; What about hard water being taken up by the roots?</p>
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