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	<title>Comments on: Critique of Stern</title>
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	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Bagshaw</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75938</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel Bagshaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very informative debate, guys. As a current student of environmental economics, I have found this very helpful.

Dan]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very informative debate, guys. As a current student of environmental economics, I have found this very helpful.</p>
<p>Dan</p>
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		<title>By: James Erlandson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75937</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Erlandson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter Lloyd:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&amp;sid=a0Vbg7oKV7.U&amp;refer=news&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bloomberg:&lt;/a&gt;
Archer Daniels Midland Co., the world&#039;s biggest corn and oilseed processor, said second-quarter profit rose 20 percent, more than analysts&#039; estimates, on higher prices for ethanol, corn sweeteners and livestock feed.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0702010233feb01,0,7607612.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chicago Tribune:&lt;/a&gt;
A surge in international corn prices, spurred partly by the growing ethanol industry, has caused huge spikes in the price of corn tortillas, a core ingredient in Mexico&#039;s diet and, some would say, the nation&#039;s very soul.

Of course if and when celulosic ethanol comes on line in quantity is should help with the corn prices. A little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Lloyd:<br />
<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&amp;sid=a0Vbg7oKV7.U&amp;refer=news" rel="nofollow">Bloomberg:</a><br />
Archer Daniels Midland Co., the world&#8217;s biggest corn and oilseed processor, said second-quarter profit rose 20 percent, more than analysts&#8217; estimates, on higher prices for ethanol, corn sweeteners and livestock feed.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0702010233feb01,0,7607612.story?coll=chi-bizfront-hed" rel="nofollow">Chicago Tribune:</a><br />
A surge in international corn prices, spurred partly by the growing ethanol industry, has caused huge spikes in the price of corn tortillas, a core ingredient in Mexico&#8217;s diet and, some would say, the nation&#8217;s very soul.</p>
<p>Of course if and when celulosic ethanol comes on line in quantity is should help with the corn prices. A little.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Lloyd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re 23-51:

By coincidence, an excellent article on ethanol fuel status in the Jan 2007 Scientific American.  Very fair, covers all the bases. In short, says conventional corn ethanol not economic, cellulose ethanol has promise if current generation of enzymes and yeasts can be shown to be controllable in industrial-scale reactors.  Also points out the positive energy balance of the new process due to production of excess electricity. Interestingly, doesn&#039;t make a big deal out of the carbon-neutral aspect.

I still feel that if Iogen&#039;s pilot plant runs successfully, even some of the time, then it is very likely it can be optimized to run all the time at commercial scale - but that&#039;s just my prejudice as an old R&amp;D guy who was lucky enough not to be involved in any dud scale-ups.

I wish someone would write as perceptive a review on biodiesel, so that the economics could be compared.  Anyone have any references?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re 23-51:</p>
<p>By coincidence, an excellent article on ethanol fuel status in the Jan 2007 Scientific American.  Very fair, covers all the bases. In short, says conventional corn ethanol not economic, cellulose ethanol has promise if current generation of enzymes and yeasts can be shown to be controllable in industrial-scale reactors.  Also points out the positive energy balance of the new process due to production of excess electricity. Interestingly, doesn&#8217;t make a big deal out of the carbon-neutral aspect.</p>
<p>I still feel that if Iogen&#8217;s pilot plant runs successfully, even some of the time, then it is very likely it can be optimized to run all the time at commercial scale &#8211; but that&#8217;s just my prejudice as an old R&amp;D guy who was lucky enough not to be involved in any dud scale-ups.</p>
<p>I wish someone would write as perceptive a review on biodiesel, so that the economics could be compared.  Anyone have any references?</p>
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		<title>By: James Erlandson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Erlandson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re 52 Chris:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0671799320/ref=s9_asin_title_1/105-8062881-9617258&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Prize &lt;/a&gt;by Daniel Yergin has accounts of charcoal powered cars and trucks used by Germany and Japan during WWII. The most interesting vehicles heated the charcoal (or in some cases wood), captured the volatile gases and used them to power an internal combustion engine. GE built a coal powered gas turbine locomotive which never worked very well because of the impurities in the coal (among other things) so you can imagine the problems wood power would bring with it.

Steam is impractical for cars/trucks/busses because of the huge volume of water required.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 52 Chris:<br />
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0671799320/ref=s9_asin_title_1/105-8062881-9617258" rel="nofollow">The Prize </a>by Daniel Yergin has accounts of charcoal powered cars and trucks used by Germany and Japan during WWII. The most interesting vehicles heated the charcoal (or in some cases wood), captured the volatile gases and used them to power an internal combustion engine. GE built a coal powered gas turbine locomotive which never worked very well because of the impurities in the coal (among other things) so you can imagine the problems wood power would bring with it.</p>
<p>Steam is impractical for cars/trucks/busses because of the huge volume of water required.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75934</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does anyone know if there any recent research into using solid bio-fuels directly? Air dried wood has about half the energy density of petrol. I guess this would mean a return to steam engines or using a steam or gas turbine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone know if there any recent research into using solid bio-fuels directly? Air dried wood has about half the energy density of petrol. I guess this would mean a return to steam engines or using a steam or gas turbine.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaye</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Decent summary on ethanol based fuel economy. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ethanol Review: Car and Driver Magazine&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Decent summary on ethanol based fuel economy. <a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html" rel="nofollow">Ethanol Review: Car and Driver Magazine</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Weffer</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Weffer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Iogen&#039;s plant and process are uneconomic which is why they have been running around from jurisdiction to jurisdiction across North America for about 15 years trying to get governments to pony up the money for a full-scale production plant.  Like the rest of the industry, it is a scam.

Now if we could only get those pesky little bugs in termites to make ethanol instead of termite food, we&#039;d have a winner.  Well not quite, they are still too slow to turn celluose into energy at an economically efficient rate in terms of human production requirements.  I&#039;m sure they will keep trying and keep hyping their stocks and new processes  and some people will lose the money they invested.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iogen&#8217;s plant and process are uneconomic which is why they have been running around from jurisdiction to jurisdiction across North America for about 15 years trying to get governments to pony up the money for a full-scale production plant.  Like the rest of the industry, it is a scam.</p>
<p>Now if we could only get those pesky little bugs in termites to make ethanol instead of termite food, we&#8217;d have a winner.  Well not quite, they are still too slow to turn celluose into energy at an economically efficient rate in terms of human production requirements.  I&#8217;m sure they will keep trying and keep hyping their stocks and new processes  and some people will lose the money they invested.</p>
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		<title>By: KevinUK</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75931</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KevinUK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#48

Ahh! But couldn&#039;t we burn the methane (our now new natural gas) produced by the termites and use it for space heating (heating our homes and offices). We could have combined heat and power (CHP) termite farms and of course these would be closed loop CHPs of course to maximise energy efficiency.

KevinUK]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#48</p>
<p>Ahh! But couldn&#8217;t we burn the methane (our now new natural gas) produced by the termites and use it for space heating (heating our homes and offices). We could have combined heat and power (CHP) termite farms and of course these would be closed loop CHPs of course to maximise energy efficiency.</p>
<p>KevinUK</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75930</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[35, Jeff


&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ve followed the Ethanol scam for many years. There is no technology to make Ethanol out of cellulose and no technology to ship it by pipeline. Mother nature has been experimenting with billions of organisms over hundreds of millions of years trying to find an efficient way to break down cellulose and she hasn&#039;t come up with one yet that doesn&#039;t take years. Wood takes forever to break down.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What?  You would be standing on billions of feet of biomass, if your statement were true.  For one of the best organisms, think about those in a termite&#039;s gut. BTW, termites are a HUGE source of methane.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>35, Jeff</p>
<blockquote><p>I&#8217;ve followed the Ethanol scam for many years. There is no technology to make Ethanol out of cellulose and no technology to ship it by pipeline. Mother nature has been experimenting with billions of organisms over hundreds of millions of years trying to find an efficient way to break down cellulose and she hasn&#8217;t come up with one yet that doesn&#8217;t take years. Wood takes forever to break down.</p></blockquote>
<p>What?  You would be standing on billions of feet of biomass, if your statement were true.  For one of the best organisms, think about those in a termite&#8217;s gut. BTW, termites are a HUGE source of methane.</p>
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		<title>By: KevinUK</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/01/15/critique-of-stern/#comment-75929</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KevinUK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1078#comment-75929</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#45 and #46 jae, fFreddy

I think you both need to read some more of &#039;Follow the Money&#039;s posts (which I greatly enjoy).

The fact is that the whole energy supply industry (oil, gas, nuclear, renewable etc) is about control of supply and vested interest. There are many people who make a great deal of money out of the status quo and have begun to see that they can make even more money by jumping on the AGW bandwagon and so have our taxes diverted into subsidising renewables and funding R&amp;D which they should be paying for themselves out of the massive profits that they are already making.

KevinUK]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#45 and #46 jae, fFreddy</p>
<p>I think you both need to read some more of &#8216;Follow the Money&#8217;s posts (which I greatly enjoy).</p>
<p>The fact is that the whole energy supply industry (oil, gas, nuclear, renewable etc) is about control of supply and vested interest. There are many people who make a great deal of money out of the status quo and have begun to see that they can make even more money by jumping on the AGW bandwagon and so have our taxes diverted into subsidising renewables and funding R&amp;D which they should be paying for themselves out of the massive profits that they are already making.</p>
<p>KevinUK</p>
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