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	<title>Comments on: Pielke Jr on Spinning Science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 20:46:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bernie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80648</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80648</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting.  You indicate that the total energy involved is relatively small but is it strong enough to make the predictions of El Nino effects more problematic?  Could it amplify or suppress El Nino effects?  Could it lead to a shorter or longer El Nino?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  You indicate that the total energy involved is relatively small but is it strong enough to make the predictions of El Nino effects more problematic?  Could it amplify or suppress El Nino effects?  Could it lead to a shorter or longer El Nino?</p>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80647</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80647</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[El ninito]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>El ninito</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David Smith</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80646</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, bernie, I was under-caffinated when I read and then replied!

There actually are something resembling El Ninos in the Atlantic ( see &lt;a href=&quot;http://ioc3.unesco.org/oopc/meetings/oopc-9/presentations/tuePM/Marshall_TACE-OOPC.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here &lt;/a&gt; ), driven by wind anomalies, but my understanding is that the Atlantic wind anomalies are small in magnitude and duration, and the amount of ocean potential energy involved is quite small compared to the Pacific.

So, they happen, but they are babies (El Enano?) compared to the Pacific events.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, bernie, I was under-caffinated when I read and then replied!</p>
<p>There actually are something resembling El Ninos in the Atlantic ( see <a href="http://ioc3.unesco.org/oopc/meetings/oopc-9/presentations/tuePM/Marshall_TACE-OOPC.pdf" rel="nofollow"> here </a> ), driven by wind anomalies, but my understanding is that the Atlantic wind anomalies are small in magnitude and duration, and the amount of ocean potential energy involved is quite small compared to the Pacific.</p>
<p>So, they happen, but they are babies (El Enano?) compared to the Pacific events.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bernie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David:
My question is more about the mechanisms for the generation of El Nino conditions off the west coast of SA.  What is it about that mechanism that means that El Nino type conditions are not generated in say the Bight of Benin?  Is it to do with the Andes, since there is clearly no equivalent in West Africa.  Basically what causes El Ninos?
Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:<br />
My question is more about the mechanisms for the generation of El Nino conditions off the west coast of SA.  What is it about that mechanism that means that El Nino type conditions are not generated in say the Bight of Benin?  Is it to do with the Andes, since there is clearly no equivalent in West Africa.  Basically what causes El Ninos?<br />
Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: David Smith</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80644</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE #58 bernie, the South Atlantic waters are too cool (below 26C) and the winds move in different directions at different altitudes (wind shear) which tears apart any seedling.

On rare occasions a seedling will survive and form a storm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE #58 bernie, the South Atlantic waters are too cool (below 26C) and the winds move in different directions at different altitudes (wind shear) which tears apart any seedling.</p>
<p>On rare occasions a seedling will survive and form a storm.</p>
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		<title>By: Willis Eschenbach</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80643</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Willis Eschenbach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ken, you &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-93886&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;say&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I would like to see more details on how Willis E. processed these data, but in my view it is line with changing count efficiencies and cyclical nature of hurricane occurrences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I first detrended the data in the normal way, removing the least squares linear trend.

Then I used an iterative process (the &quot;Solver&quot; function in Excel) to determine the phase, amplitude, and frequency of the sinusoidal wave that removed the most variation from the hurricane data (minimizing the RMS error between the sine wave and the data).

All the best,

w.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, you <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-93886" rel="nofollow">say</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I would like to see more details on how Willis E. processed these data, but in my view it is line with changing count efficiencies and cyclical nature of hurricane occurrences.</p></blockquote>
<p>I first detrended the data in the normal way, removing the least squares linear trend.</p>
<p>Then I used an iterative process (the &#8220;Solver&#8221; function in Excel) to determine the phase, amplitude, and frequency of the sinusoidal wave that removed the most variation from the hurricane data (minimizing the RMS error between the sine wave and the data).</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>w.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ken Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #57

The Cusum plots, while showing a change in mean hurricane counts are not, in my mind, a particularly good analytical tool knowing what we do about the occurence and measurement of hurricanes.  We suspect a trend due to counting efficiency (which could be confounded with a natural increase &#039;€&quot; but that is contradicted by the steady count of landfall hurricanes) and there is evidence of a reoccurring increase in hurricanes on a multi-decadal time scale.

From Paul Linsay&#039;s Poisson Fit thread, Willis E. detrended and removed a sine cycle from the 1851 to 2006 hurricane data and compared it to a Poisson distribution here:

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1022#comments

The Chi square goodness of fit test to a Poisson distribution for the untreated data yielded a p = 0.09, while the data worked by Willis E. to detrend and with cycle removal gave a Chi square goodness of fit to a Poisson distribution of p = 0.87.  I would like to see more details on how Willis E. processed these data, but in my view it is line with changing count efficiencies and cyclical nature of hurricane occurrences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #57</p>
<p>The Cusum plots, while showing a change in mean hurricane counts are not, in my mind, a particularly good analytical tool knowing what we do about the occurence and measurement of hurricanes.  We suspect a trend due to counting efficiency (which could be confounded with a natural increase &#8216;€&#8221; but that is contradicted by the steady count of landfall hurricanes) and there is evidence of a reoccurring increase in hurricanes on a multi-decadal time scale.</p>
<p>From Paul Linsay&#8217;s Poisson Fit thread, Willis E. detrended and removed a sine cycle from the 1851 to 2006 hurricane data and compared it to a Poisson distribution here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1022#comments" rel="nofollow">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1022#comments</a></p>
<p>The Chi square goodness of fit test to a Poisson distribution for the untreated data yielded a p = 0.09, while the data worked by Willis E. to detrend and with cycle removal gave a Chi square goodness of fit to a Poisson distribution of p = 0.87.  I would like to see more details on how Willis E. processed these data, but in my view it is line with changing count efficiencies and cyclical nature of hurricane occurrences.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bernie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 23:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was looking at these numbers too, and don&#039;t you have to control for El Nino effects before looking for patterns.
I was also thinking if there is an equivalent of El Nino in the South Atlantic?  If not, why so much asymmetry?
Are differences in shorelines and currents sufficient?  If an equivalent does exist the
interaction of the two should be interesting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was looking at these numbers too, and don&#8217;t you have to control for El Nino effects before looking for patterns.<br />
I was also thinking if there is an equivalent of El Nino in the South Atlantic?  If not, why so much asymmetry?<br />
Are differences in shorelines and currents sufficient?  If an equivalent does exist the<br />
interaction of the two should be interesting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DeWitt Payne</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80640</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DeWitt Payne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #55

I really would appreciate some feedback from someone with a stronger background in statistics than myself.  I think I have done the control limits (Decision Intervals) correctly, but I really don&#039;t know.  As you can see, I have posted the plot of hurricane numbers from 1944 to 2006.  While it looks like a shift in lambda may have occurred in 1995, you really can&#039;t reject the null hypothesis of a constant lambda until 2005.

Here is the log from anygeth that I used to calculate the Decision Intervals for the 1944 to 2006 plot.  It may mean more to you than it does to me.  I think  that an in control ARL of 474 means you can expect one out-of-control point every 474 data points and the OOC ARL of 13.2 means that a run of 14 points above the mean would be another reason to reject the null hypothesis.  The Winsorizing constants used mean no Winsorizing was done, whatever that is.:

Program to calculate cusum decision intervals
 Copyright 1997, D M Hawkins and D H Olwell
 Which distribution do you want?
    Poisson
  Enter the in-control and out-of-control means
       6.000       8.000
 The exact theoretical reference value is       6.952
 Enter the reference value you want to use :
       7.000
 What are the Winsorizing constants?
     -999.00      999.00
 Want zero-start (say Z), steady state (say S) or FIR (say F)?
 z

 Enter ARL
    400.0000
 h    10.0000 arls    132.3    119.6    128.2
 h    12.0000 arls    252.6    232.8    247.4
 h    13.0000 arls    346.5    326.7    340.9

 k  7.0000 h 13.0000 ARL    346.51
           h 14.0000 ARL    473.73

 DI  14.000, IC ARL    473.7, OOC ARL   13.2, FIR ARL    8.2, SS ARL    8.5
 Which distribution do you want?
    Poisson
  Enter the in-control and out-of-control means
       6.000       4.000
 The exact theoretical reference value is       4.933
 Enter the reference value you want to use :
       5.000
 What are the Winsorizing constants?
     -999.00      999.00
 Want zero-start (say Z), steady state (say S) or FIR (say F)?
 z

 Enter ARL
    400.0000
 h    10.0000 arls    243.1    222.1    237.1
 h    12.0000 arls    531.0    497.1    524.2
 h    11.0000 arls    360.1    339.1    353.4

 k  5.0000 h 11.0000 ARL    360.06
           h 12.0000 ARL    531.00

 DI  12.000, IC ARL    531.0, OOC ARL   11.7, FIR ARL    6.8, SS ARL    6.8]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #55</p>
<p>I really would appreciate some feedback from someone with a stronger background in statistics than myself.  I think I have done the control limits (Decision Intervals) correctly, but I really don&#8217;t know.  As you can see, I have posted the plot of hurricane numbers from 1944 to 2006.  While it looks like a shift in lambda may have occurred in 1995, you really can&#8217;t reject the null hypothesis of a constant lambda until 2005.</p>
<p>Here is the log from anygeth that I used to calculate the Decision Intervals for the 1944 to 2006 plot.  It may mean more to you than it does to me.  I think  that an in control ARL of 474 means you can expect one out-of-control point every 474 data points and the OOC ARL of 13.2 means that a run of 14 points above the mean would be another reason to reject the null hypothesis.  The Winsorizing constants used mean no Winsorizing was done, whatever that is.:</p>
<p>Program to calculate cusum decision intervals<br />
 Copyright 1997, D M Hawkins and D H Olwell<br />
 Which distribution do you want?<br />
    Poisson<br />
  Enter the in-control and out-of-control means<br />
       6.000       8.000<br />
 The exact theoretical reference value is       6.952<br />
 Enter the reference value you want to use :<br />
       7.000<br />
 What are the Winsorizing constants?<br />
     -999.00      999.00<br />
 Want zero-start (say Z), steady state (say S) or FIR (say F)?<br />
 z</p>
<p> Enter ARL<br />
    400.0000<br />
 h    10.0000 arls    132.3    119.6    128.2<br />
 h    12.0000 arls    252.6    232.8    247.4<br />
 h    13.0000 arls    346.5    326.7    340.9</p>
<p> k  7.0000 h 13.0000 ARL    346.51<br />
           h 14.0000 ARL    473.73</p>
<p> DI  14.000, IC ARL    473.7, OOC ARL   13.2, FIR ARL    8.2, SS ARL    8.5<br />
 Which distribution do you want?<br />
    Poisson<br />
  Enter the in-control and out-of-control means<br />
       6.000       4.000<br />
 The exact theoretical reference value is       4.933<br />
 Enter the reference value you want to use :<br />
       5.000<br />
 What are the Winsorizing constants?<br />
     -999.00      999.00<br />
 Want zero-start (say Z), steady state (say S) or FIR (say F)?<br />
 z</p>
<p> Enter ARL<br />
    400.0000<br />
 h    10.0000 arls    243.1    222.1    237.1<br />
 h    12.0000 arls    531.0    497.1    524.2<br />
 h    11.0000 arls    360.1    339.1    353.4</p>
<p> k  5.0000 h 11.0000 ARL    360.06<br />
           h 12.0000 ARL    531.00</p>
<p> DI  12.000, IC ARL    531.0, OOC ARL   11.7, FIR ARL    6.8, SS ARL    6.8</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ken Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/02/28/pielke-jr-on-spinning-science/#comment-80639</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1206#comment-80639</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This graph should be easier to read.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This graph should be easier to read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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