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	<title>Comments on: The Dendroclimatologists are Angry</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SteveM, I can&#039;t find  &lt;strong&gt;More on MBH Confidence Intervals&lt;/strong&gt; , and your link in #186 doesn&#039;t work.
Synopsis for new readers: code by JeanS,  http://data.climateaudit.org/data/MBH99/MBH99_figure2.m , replicates figure 2. Reverse engineering shows that those residuals are obtained using sparse temperature data. Makes the residuals look less red than they are. Nobody knows how to compute those CIs, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ei/ei_data/nhem-standerr-labeled.dat
I have a theory, but as I can&#039;t reproduce fig 3b, I can&#039;t verify it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveM, I can&#8217;t find  <strong>More on MBH Confidence Intervals</strong> , and your link in #186 doesn&#8217;t work.<br />
Synopsis for new readers: code by JeanS,  <a href="http://data.climateaudit.org/data/MBH99/MBH99_figure2.m" rel="nofollow">http://data.climateaudit.org/data/MBH99/MBH99_figure2.m</a> , replicates figure 2. Reverse engineering shows that those residuals are obtained using sparse temperature data. Makes the residuals look less red than they are. Nobody knows how to compute those CIs, <a href="http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ei/ei_data/nhem-standerr-labeled.dat" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ei/ei_data/nhem-standerr-labeled.dat</a><br />
I have a theory, but as I can&#8217;t reproduce fig 3b, I can&#8217;t verify it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#189. Been there.  How do you think one goes from A to B?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#189. Been there.  How do you think one goes from A to B?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MarkR</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re Where the statisical analysis is coming from and how they did what, a few clues maybe at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/tcd/ssa/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Singular Spectrum Analysis - MultiTaper Method (SSA-MTM) Toolkit is a software program to analyze short, noisy time series, such as the one below, as well as multivariate data. &lt;/a&gt; M Mann and Myles Allen (M Juckes pal) are listed as part of developing group.

Plus I didn&#039;t see this one before, it has a table in it with predictions based on the above method. Sorry if you all know this already,

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/tcd/PREPRINTS/2000RG.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ADVANCED SPECTRAL METHODS FOR CLIMATIC
TIME SERIES
M. Ghil,1 M. R. Allen,2 M. D. Dettinger,3 K. Ide,1
D. Kondrashov,1 M. E. Mann,4 A. W. Robertson,1
A. Saunders,1 Y. Tian,1 F. Varadi,1 and P. Yiou5
Received 28 August 2000; revised 3 July 2001; accepted 18 September 2001; published XX Month 2001.&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;[1] The analysis of univariate or multivariate time series
provides crucial information to describe, understand,
and predict climatic variability. The discovery and implementation
of a number of novel methods for extracting
useful information from time series has recently
revitalized this classical field of study. Considerable
progress has also been made in interpreting the information
so obtained in terms of dynamical systems theory.
In this review we describe the connections between
time series analysis and nonlinear dynamics, discuss signal-
to-noise enhancement, and present some of the
novel methods for spectral analysis. The various steps, as
well as the advantages and disadvantages of these methods,
are illustrated by their application to an important
climatic time series, the Southern Oscillation Index. This
index captures major features of interannual climate variability
and is used extensively in its prediction. Regional
and global sea surface temperature data sets are used to
illustrate multivariate spectral methods. Open questions
and further prospects conclude the review. INDEX TERMS:
1620 Climate dynamics (3309); 3220 Nonlinear dynamics;
4522 El NinËœo; 9820 Techniques applicable in three
or more fields; KEYWORDS: climate; dynamical systems; El
NinËœo; prediction; spectral analysis; time series&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Where the statisical analysis is coming from and how they did what, a few clues maybe at <a href="http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/tcd/ssa/index.html" rel="nofollow">The Singular Spectrum Analysis &#8211; MultiTaper Method (SSA-MTM) Toolkit is a software program to analyze short, noisy time series, such as the one below, as well as multivariate data. </a> M Mann and Myles Allen (M Juckes pal) are listed as part of developing group.</p>
<p>Plus I didn&#8217;t see this one before, it has a table in it with predictions based on the above method. Sorry if you all know this already,</p>
<p><a href="http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/tcd/PREPRINTS/2000RG.pdf" rel="nofollow">ADVANCED SPECTRAL METHODS FOR CLIMATIC<br />
TIME SERIES<br />
M. Ghil,1 M. R. Allen,2 M. D. Dettinger,3 K. Ide,1<br />
D. Kondrashov,1 M. E. Mann,4 A. W. Robertson,1<br />
A. Saunders,1 Y. Tian,1 F. Varadi,1 and P. Yiou5<br />
Received 28 August 2000; revised 3 July 2001; accepted 18 September 2001; published XX Month 2001.</a></p>
<blockquote><p>[1] The analysis of univariate or multivariate time series<br />
provides crucial information to describe, understand,<br />
and predict climatic variability. The discovery and implementation<br />
of a number of novel methods for extracting<br />
useful information from time series has recently<br />
revitalized this classical field of study. Considerable<br />
progress has also been made in interpreting the information<br />
so obtained in terms of dynamical systems theory.<br />
In this review we describe the connections between<br />
time series analysis and nonlinear dynamics, discuss signal-<br />
to-noise enhancement, and present some of the<br />
novel methods for spectral analysis. The various steps, as<br />
well as the advantages and disadvantages of these methods,<br />
are illustrated by their application to an important<br />
climatic time series, the Southern Oscillation Index. This<br />
index captures major features of interannual climate variability<br />
and is used extensively in its prediction. Regional<br />
and global sea surface temperature data sets are used to<br />
illustrate multivariate spectral methods. Open questions<br />
and further prospects conclude the review. INDEX TERMS:<br />
1620 Climate dynamics (3309); 3220 Nonlinear dynamics;<br />
4522 El NinËœo; 9820 Techniques applicable in three<br />
or more fields; KEYWORDS: climate; dynamical systems; El<br />
NinËœo; prediction; spectral analysis; time series</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83411</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#186.  Phil, our efforts to understand the confidence intervals are reviewed at http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=647  See also pages p=200, 201, 502 and 520.

You ask how this stuff passed &quot;peer review&quot;? WEll, it didn&#039;t just pass review - stadiums of climate scientists reviewed for IPCC TAR and none of them understood what he did either. What makes me more irritated is that I asked the NAS panel to find out - it was relevant to their mandate but they didn&#039;t. Any business auditor would have.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#186.  Phil, our efforts to understand the confidence intervals are reviewed at <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=647" rel="nofollow">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=647</a>  See also pages p=200, 201, 502 and 520.</p>
<p>You ask how this stuff passed &#8220;peer review&#8221;? WEll, it didn&#8217;t just pass review &#8211; stadiums of climate scientists reviewed for IPCC TAR and none of them understood what he did either. What makes me more irritated is that I asked the NAS panel to find out &#8211; it was relevant to their mandate but they didn&#8217;t. Any business auditor would have.</p>
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		<title>By: trevor</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83410</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[trevor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83410</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #186:

&lt;blockquote&gt;How did it pass peer review?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Those who have frequented this site over the past couple of years would know that the climate scientists&#039; &#039;golden seal of quality&#039; is &#039;peer review&#039;.  If it is &#039;peer reviewed&#039; it is A OK in the team and the IPCC clique who represent themselves as the &#039;consensus of scientists&#039;.

The term &#039;peer review&#039; is represented as meaning that the papers have been quality checked by appropriately qualified, and independent, peer reviewers and have been approved of as being up to golden seal of quality standard.

Unfortunately, the reality is, as has been clearly exposed on this site, that for the team, &#039;peer review&#039; actually appears to mean that a mate or colleague has cast his eye over the paper and pronounced that it is A OK.  Peer reviewers apparently didn&#039;t bother to really check the work for soundness.  Nor did they check that basic requirements of sound science such as use of good quality statistics, proper archiving of data and methods etc have been met.  When a truly independent peer reviewer turns up, and starts asking awkward questions, he is frozen out of the process.

It has become abundantly clear that the term &#039;peer review&#039; in climate science means very little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #186:</p>
<blockquote><p>How did it pass peer review?</p></blockquote>
<p>Those who have frequented this site over the past couple of years would know that the climate scientists&#8217; &#8216;golden seal of quality&#8217; is &#8216;peer review&#8217;.  If it is &#8216;peer reviewed&#8217; it is A OK in the team and the IPCC clique who represent themselves as the &#8216;consensus of scientists&#8217;.</p>
<p>The term &#8216;peer review&#8217; is represented as meaning that the papers have been quality checked by appropriately qualified, and independent, peer reviewers and have been approved of as being up to golden seal of quality standard.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the reality is, as has been clearly exposed on this site, that for the team, &#8216;peer review&#8217; actually appears to mean that a mate or colleague has cast his eye over the paper and pronounced that it is A OK.  Peer reviewers apparently didn&#8217;t bother to really check the work for soundness.  Nor did they check that basic requirements of sound science such as use of good quality statistics, proper archiving of data and methods etc have been met.  When a truly independent peer reviewer turns up, and starts asking awkward questions, he is frozen out of the process.</p>
<p>It has become abundantly clear that the term &#8216;peer review&#8217; in climate science means very little.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil B.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83409</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83409</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #183, Steve are you referring to figure 3 in mbh99?  What was the time frame that you, Jean S, and UC were looking at this, so I can look at the discussion.  A quick reread and I didn&#039;t see any mention about how it was calculated.  How did it pass peer review?
So sorry for the rhetorical question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #183, Steve are you referring to figure 3 in mbh99?  What was the time frame that you, Jean S, and UC were looking at this, so I can look at the discussion.  A quick reread and I didn&#8217;t see any mention about how it was calculated.  How did it pass peer review?<br />
So sorry for the rhetorical question.</p>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83408</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83408</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[and here we need to remember Kerry Emanuel&#039;s


&lt;blockquote&gt;This exercise has been repeated using many different climate models, with the same qualitative result: one cannot simulate the evolution of the climate over last 30 years without including in the simulations mankind&#039;s influence on sulfate aerosols and greenhouse gases.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



So, we have two choices:

1) use Mann&#039;s robust method (chops the peak of AR1 with p close to one. Then you&#039;ll need the A in AGW

2) Forget Mann&#039;s statistical signal processing, use AR1 with p=0.93, and then you can simulate the evolution of the climate over last 30 years. Without A.


Why 1) is better than 2) ? I&#039;ve read many Mann&#039;s papers so I would choose 2), if these arguments are the best they can give.

#183

I think that reproducing figure 3 b would help to solve that problem. But the not so surprising fact is that Jean&#039;s code that reproduces fig 2 doesn&#039;t reproduce fig 3 b. I think is very hard to find something that is correctly calculated in MBH9X. No smiley here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and here we need to remember Kerry Emanuel&#8217;s</p>
<blockquote><p>This exercise has been repeated using many different climate models, with the same qualitative result: one cannot simulate the evolution of the climate over last 30 years without including in the simulations mankind&#8217;s influence on sulfate aerosols and greenhouse gases.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, we have two choices:</p>
<p>1) use Mann&#8217;s robust method (chops the peak of AR1 with p close to one. Then you&#8217;ll need the A in AGW</p>
<p>2) Forget Mann&#8217;s statistical signal processing, use AR1 with p=0.93, and then you can simulate the evolution of the climate over last 30 years. Without A.</p>
<p>Why 1) is better than 2) ? I&#8217;ve read many Mann&#8217;s papers so I would choose 2), if these arguments are the best they can give.</p>
<p>#183</p>
<p>I think that reproducing figure 3 b would help to solve that problem. But the not so surprising fact is that Jean&#8217;s code that reproduces fig 2 doesn&#8217;t reproduce fig 3 b. I think is very hard to find something that is correctly calculated in MBH9X. No smiley here.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83407</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83407</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The main value to me of Mann and Lees is to show the general point of view of Mann. It&#039;s a starting point from which his own &quot;mission&quot; seems to have gone into full speed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main value to me of Mann and Lees is to show the general point of view of Mann. It&#8217;s a starting point from which his own &#8220;mission&#8221; seems to have gone into full speed.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83406</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#182. However Mann and LEes is of no help in trying to figure out how MBH99 confidence intervals were calculated. UC, Jean S and I have all tried and are stumped. I&#039;ve tried to get Cicerone of NAS and North of the NAS panel to obtain a clarification but Cicerone refused and North has been unsuccessful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#182. However Mann and LEes is of no help in trying to figure out how MBH99 confidence intervals were calculated. UC, Jean S and I have all tried and are stumped. I&#8217;ve tried to get Cicerone of NAS and North of the NAS panel to obtain a clarification but Cicerone refused and North has been unsuccessful.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil B.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/03/29/the-dendrochronologists-are-angry/#comment-83405</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 17:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1303#comment-83405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE 181, UC, you are preaching to the choir (engineer) who has practiced signal processing and estimation theory for 30 years.  I have never seen the word secular used in signal processing/data analysis before.

The positive aspect of MannLees 96 paper is the number of equations that are presented.  Almost all the reconstruction papers I have read contain only a few unnumbered equations or none. References are provide for the methodology/equations and after chasing down the references one finds no equations or detailed discussion there either. Very frustrating, as it make it difficult or impossible to follow or replicate the results.
The devil is in the detail.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE 181, UC, you are preaching to the choir (engineer) who has practiced signal processing and estimation theory for 30 years.  I have never seen the word secular used in signal processing/data analysis before.</p>
<p>The positive aspect of MannLees 96 paper is the number of equations that are presented.  Almost all the reconstruction papers I have read contain only a few unnumbered equations or none. References are provide for the methodology/equations and after chasing down the references one finds no equations or detailed discussion there either. Very frustrating, as it make it difficult or impossible to follow or replicate the results.<br />
The devil is in the detail.</p>
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