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	<title>Comments on: Unthreaded #8</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 12:21:51 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Bob Koss</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Koss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This page has been loading slowly for a couple days. Might want to consider another unthreaded.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This page has been loading slowly for a couple days. Might want to consider another unthreaded.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikel Marià±elarena</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84448</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mikel Marià±elarena]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More on aerosols (point 2) by Richard Lindzen, with a lot of additional food for thought:

http://www.physics.harvard.edu/%7Emotl/lindzen-nature-of-arguments.pdf

It may do for the request in comment 353 too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More on aerosols (point 2) by Richard Lindzen, with a lot of additional food for thought:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.physics.harvard.edu/%7Emotl/lindzen-nature-of-arguments.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.physics.harvard.edu/%7Emotl/lindzen-nature-of-arguments.pdf</a></p>
<p>It may do for the request in comment 353 too.</p>
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		<title>By: crmanriq</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crmanriq]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m passing along a request that I had from my son.  He&#039;s in a college level biology course, and for some reason they are covering global warming as a topic. He&#039;s looking for two articles - one on each side of the global warming issue.  Can anyone point to something that gives general overviews of the arguments on each side?

Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m passing along a request that I had from my son.  He&#8217;s in a college level biology course, and for some reason they are covering global warming as a topic. He&#8217;s looking for two articles &#8211; one on each side of the global warming issue.  Can anyone point to something that gives general overviews of the arguments on each side?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Harwood</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred Harwood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re:  347

Also see &quot;Ultimate Resource II&quot; by Julian Simon (RIP)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  347</p>
<p>Also see &#8220;Ultimate Resource II&#8221; by Julian Simon (RIP)</p>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84445</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Willis,

One of the big problems with the UN estimates is that they assume that all countries whose population is currently dropping, will have their rates stabilize when they hit replacement.  (2.1 live births per woman)  Problem with that assumption is that it has never happened.  To date, every country whose birthrates have hit replacement, have had their birthrates continue to fall.
The UN also assumes that countries with birthrates below replacement will over the next decade, return to replacement.  Once again, that has not happened either.  Countries in Europe have had their birthrates well below replacement for decades now, with no evidence that they are moving upwards.  Despite growing govt efforts to increase the rates.

What we are seeing here is an accelerating trend.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willis,</p>
<p>One of the big problems with the UN estimates is that they assume that all countries whose population is currently dropping, will have their rates stabilize when they hit replacement.  (2.1 live births per woman)  Problem with that assumption is that it has never happened.  To date, every country whose birthrates have hit replacement, have had their birthrates continue to fall.<br />
The UN also assumes that countries with birthrates below replacement will over the next decade, return to replacement.  Once again, that has not happened either.  Countries in Europe have had their birthrates well below replacement for decades now, with no evidence that they are moving upwards.  Despite growing govt efforts to increase the rates.</p>
<p>What we are seeing here is an accelerating trend.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,

My personal guess is that we will see the population peak within 10 years.  We already have two major countries, Russia and Japan, with falling populations. (I&#039;g going to leave out discussions of how AIDS is devastating many African countries, because that could turn around if a cure is found.)   In Europe, birthrates have been below replacement for over a generation, only immigration keeps their populations growing.  There are only a handfull of countries left with birthrates higher than 3 or 4 per woman, and even those are falling fast.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>My personal guess is that we will see the population peak within 10 years.  We already have two major countries, Russia and Japan, with falling populations. (I&#8217;g going to leave out discussions of how AIDS is devastating many African countries, because that could turn around if a cure is found.)   In Europe, birthrates have been below replacement for over a generation, only immigration keeps their populations growing.  There are only a handfull of countries left with birthrates higher than 3 or 4 per woman, and even those are falling fast.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Hill</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84443</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re. 333 Steve S &quot;grim&quot; E Pacific cooling
thanks for the link
is it unprecedented? if not when was the last time?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re. 333 Steve S &#8220;grim&#8221; E Pacific cooling<br />
thanks for the link<br />
is it unprecedented? if not when was the last time?</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Erren</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hans Erren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re 342:
Correct, although I would call it an absorption spectrum (dark lines in a continuum).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re 342:<br />
Correct, although I would call it an absorption spectrum (dark lines in a continuum).</p>
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		<title>By: Willis Eschenbach</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Willis Eschenbach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve S., you raise an interesting issue when you say:


&lt;blockquote&gt;RE: “The human population, currently 6.5 billion, is predicted to rise to 9.1 billion by 2050. ”

Not! This is the problem. There is a whole subculture out there still playing the old late 1960s - early 1970s Erlichian tape. The “Soylent Green” vision of the future. They were predicting that we&#039;d be over 10B by now (if not extinct). They sure got that wrong. They assumed that the large post WW2 families in Western countries would continue to be the norm through the end of the century and that birth control would never take hold in the 3rd world. When in fact, by the 1980s, in the West, it was already obvious we&#039;d soon hit our peak of natural growth and start falling so rapidly that we&#039;d hear calls to import labor to do jobs “we won&#039;t do.” But instead of acknowledging their error, they now hang their hats on the third world. Funny thing is, beyond a handful of those countries, natural increase has also slowed much more rapidly than anyone would have ever imagined. Once a person gets a cell phone or otherwise tinged by modernity, the whole big family thing loses its appeal and bourgeoisification starts to set in. The whole world will be on the Euro like negative trend within a generation if not sooner. I expect the peak in population prior to 50.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s a couple of ways to estimate future populations. We have good data from 1961 - 2004. The growth rate has been steadily dropping. By my calculations, if we extend the average drop in growth rates linearly, by 2050 the population will be 9.17 billion. For comparison, the UN Median Estimate is 9.19 billion in 2050.

Or we can look at the post-1990 drop, which has been slightly steeper. Extending that drop gives us a peak in 2042, with a 2050 population of 7.88 billion The UN Low Estimate for 2050, for comparison, is 7.79 billion. So my estimates are very close to the UN estimates, which gives some confidence in the figures.

The UN high estimate is 10.76 billion, I&#039;d throw that out as unrealistic. I&#039;d say that the 2050 population will likely be around eight and a half billion, plus or minus a billion.

While these numbers are large, from 1961 to 2006 the world population more than doubled (~210%). There&#039;s more than twice as many people on the planet than when I was in high school, and yet people are living better and eating better than they were in the sixties, even the poorest people.

On the other hand, from now to 2050 we&#039;re only looking at a population increase of about 17-38%, not 210% ... me, I think we&#039;ll deal with that without calamitous problems or meltdowns, but YMMV ...

w.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve S., you raise an interesting issue when you say:</p>
<blockquote><p>RE: “The human population, currently 6.5 billion, is predicted to rise to 9.1 billion by 2050. ”</p>
<p>Not! This is the problem. There is a whole subculture out there still playing the old late 1960s &#8211; early 1970s Erlichian tape. The “Soylent Green” vision of the future. They were predicting that we&#8217;d be over 10B by now (if not extinct). They sure got that wrong. They assumed that the large post WW2 families in Western countries would continue to be the norm through the end of the century and that birth control would never take hold in the 3rd world. When in fact, by the 1980s, in the West, it was already obvious we&#8217;d soon hit our peak of natural growth and start falling so rapidly that we&#8217;d hear calls to import labor to do jobs “we won&#8217;t do.” But instead of acknowledging their error, they now hang their hats on the third world. Funny thing is, beyond a handful of those countries, natural increase has also slowed much more rapidly than anyone would have ever imagined. Once a person gets a cell phone or otherwise tinged by modernity, the whole big family thing loses its appeal and bourgeoisification starts to set in. The whole world will be on the Euro like negative trend within a generation if not sooner. I expect the peak in population prior to 50.</p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s a couple of ways to estimate future populations. We have good data from 1961 &#8211; 2004. The growth rate has been steadily dropping. By my calculations, if we extend the average drop in growth rates linearly, by 2050 the population will be 9.17 billion. For comparison, the UN Median Estimate is 9.19 billion in 2050.</p>
<p>Or we can look at the post-1990 drop, which has been slightly steeper. Extending that drop gives us a peak in 2042, with a 2050 population of 7.88 billion The UN Low Estimate for 2050, for comparison, is 7.79 billion. So my estimates are very close to the UN estimates, which gives some confidence in the figures.</p>
<p>The UN high estimate is 10.76 billion, I&#8217;d throw that out as unrealistic. I&#8217;d say that the 2050 population will likely be around eight and a half billion, plus or minus a billion.</p>
<p>While these numbers are large, from 1961 to 2006 the world population more than doubled (~210%). There&#8217;s more than twice as many people on the planet than when I was in high school, and yet people are living better and eating better than they were in the sixties, even the poorest people.</p>
<p>On the other hand, from now to 2050 we&#8217;re only looking at a population increase of about 17-38%, not 210% &#8230; me, I think we&#8217;ll deal with that without calamitous problems or meltdowns, but YMMV &#8230;</p>
<p>w.</p>
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		<title>By: mccall</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/04/05/unthreaded-8/#comment-84440</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mccall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1332#comment-84440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks.  Blog hot-link button techniques vary and sometimes break -- combining that with my own HREF delimiter errors, is why I often just post the link (w/o making it hot), as in 324.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks.  Blog hot-link button techniques vary and sometimes break &#8212; combining that with my own HREF delimiter errors, is why I often just post the link (w/o making it hot), as in 324.</p>
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