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	<title>Comments on: New Scientist, Juckes and Rob Wilson</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 15:32:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark T.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88606</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 16:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88606</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I realized it might be Brignell after I posted (should&#039;ve just gone to his website)... thanks bender.

Mark]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realized it might be Brignell after I posted (should&#8217;ve just gone to his website)&#8230; thanks bender.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: TAC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88605</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TAC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 11:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does anyone know where to find a good set of spaghetti graphs depicting the individual proxy records (i.e. one line per tree or other series), each shifted and scaled to &quot;best-fit&quot; the instrumental record over the period of overlap? I recall that somebody did this (SteveM?), but I don&#039;t recall where.  Thanks!  :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone know where to find a good set of spaghetti graphs depicting the individual proxy records (i.e. one line per tree or other series), each shifted and scaled to &#8220;best-fit&#8221; the instrumental record over the period of overlap? I recall that somebody did this (SteveM?), but I don&#8217;t recall where.  Thanks!  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88604</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 23:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #241 Br&lt;strong&gt;i&lt;/strong&gt;gnell.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #241 Br<strong>i</strong>gnell.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark T.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did anyone mention that the caption says &quot;&lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; suggest that it is warmer now than any time in the past 1000 years&quot; (emphasis mine) yet both the Esper 2002 and Moberg 2005 peak about 1000 years ago and do not return, even today?  Perhaps the caption should have been &quot;nearly all...&quot;???

Mark]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did anyone mention that the caption says &#8220;<em>all</em> suggest that it is warmer now than any time in the past 1000 years&#8221; (emphasis mine) yet both the Esper 2002 and Moberg 2005 peak about 1000 years ago and do not return, even today?  Perhaps the caption should have been &#8220;nearly all&#8230;&#8221;???</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88602</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 22:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would appear that the interest in dendrochronology, and specifically Rob Wilson&#039;s approach to this science, got sidetracked by other discussions including some observations on the philosophical basis of scientific inquiry and what that inquiry emphasizes.  I thought what was being discussed was more on emphases (empirical and experimental versus theory and hypothesis or emperical versus semi-emperical as described in the excerpt below) than basically different approaches. I&#039;ll give my take on the subject from the excerpts from Wikipedia below and let it go at that because I would rather get posters&#039; takes on, specificaly again, Rob Wilson&#039;s approach to using TR and MXD for temperature reconstruction.

The tendency in these observations posted to a blog are that they can be over simplistic and with that precaution in mind I will attempt to summarize what I find lacking in Wilson and company&#039;s approach.  The item with which I believe most here would agree is that Wilson and company do not strictly adhere to when applying the scienticfic method of inquiry is:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What I see as a perhaps a lacking to which posters are in less agreement is:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here, I think the lacking involves using hypotheses that would provide criteria for selecting trees, months, lags, TRs, MXD, QC indexes, etc. for temperature reconstructions &lt;b&gt;prior to testing&lt;/b&gt; and then using all the data to test whether a model can predict temperatures in the instrumental time period using both calibration and validation.  What bothers me about the current approach as I understand it (I will stand corrected if someone provides better information) are that the criteria selected are based on the &lt;b&gt;results&lt;/b&gt; of the testing after the fact and the dangers of data snooping are completely ignored.  In my view, if these dangers were well understood the dendros would be making a major effort to compare the calibration and validation periods for a reduction in correlation on going from calibration to validation, and finally, since data snooping can always look ahead to validation performance, they would want to be making every effort to look at out-of-sample periods using the same criteria that was applied to the original calibration and validation periods.

&lt;blockquote&gt;A central concept in a science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence that is observable by the senses. It is differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective &quot;empirical&quot; or the adverb &quot;empirically&quot;. Empirical is used in conjunction with both the natural and social sciences, and refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations.

In a second sense &quot;empirical&quot; in science may be synonymous with &quot;experimental&quot;. In this sense, an empirical result is an experimental observation. The term semi-empirical is sometimes used to describe theoretical methods which make use of basic axioms, established scientific laws, and previous experimental results in order to engage in reasoned model building and theoretical inquiry.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

&lt;blockquote&gt;Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry serve to bind many specific hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_proof]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would appear that the interest in dendrochronology, and specifically Rob Wilson&#8217;s approach to this science, got sidetracked by other discussions including some observations on the philosophical basis of scientific inquiry and what that inquiry emphasizes.  I thought what was being discussed was more on emphases (empirical and experimental versus theory and hypothesis or emperical versus semi-emperical as described in the excerpt below) than basically different approaches. I&#8217;ll give my take on the subject from the excerpts from Wikipedia below and let it go at that because I would rather get posters&#8217; takes on, specificaly again, Rob Wilson&#8217;s approach to using TR and MXD for temperature reconstruction.</p>
<p>The tendency in these observations posted to a blog are that they can be over simplistic and with that precaution in mind I will attempt to summarize what I find lacking in Wilson and company&#8217;s approach.  The item with which I believe most here would agree is that Wilson and company do not strictly adhere to when applying the scienticfic method of inquiry is:</p>
<blockquote><p>Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.</p></blockquote>
<p>What I see as a perhaps a lacking to which posters are in less agreement is:</p>
<blockquote><p>Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here, I think the lacking involves using hypotheses that would provide criteria for selecting trees, months, lags, TRs, MXD, QC indexes, etc. for temperature reconstructions <b>prior to testing</b> and then using all the data to test whether a model can predict temperatures in the instrumental time period using both calibration and validation.  What bothers me about the current approach as I understand it (I will stand corrected if someone provides better information) are that the criteria selected are based on the <b>results</b> of the testing after the fact and the dangers of data snooping are completely ignored.  In my view, if these dangers were well understood the dendros would be making a major effort to compare the calibration and validation periods for a reduction in correlation on going from calibration to validation, and finally, since data snooping can always look ahead to validation performance, they would want to be making every effort to look at out-of-sample periods using the same criteria that was applied to the original calibration and validation periods.</p>
<blockquote><p>A central concept in a science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence that is observable by the senses. It is differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective &#8220;empirical&#8221; or the adverb &#8220;empirically&#8221;. Empirical is used in conjunction with both the natural and social sciences, and refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations.</p>
<p>In a second sense &#8220;empirical&#8221; in science may be synonymous with &#8220;experimental&#8221;. In this sense, an empirical result is an experimental observation. The term semi-empirical is sometimes used to describe theoretical methods which make use of basic axioms, established scientific laws, and previous experimental results in order to engage in reasoned model building and theoretical inquiry.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry serve to bind many specific hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.</p>
<p>Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_proof" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_proof</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark T.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88601</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;the trick is in bending the response curve the way it&#039;s supposed to be&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Benders are capable of bending anything, even unbendable bars!  John Brognell (is that spelled right?) of numberwatch calls himself &quot;your bending author.&quot;  Maybe there&#039;s a connection. :)

Mark]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>the trick is in bending the response curve the way it&#8217;s supposed to be</p></blockquote>
<p>Benders are capable of bending anything, even unbendable bars!  John Brognell (is that spelled right?) of numberwatch calls himself &#8220;your bending author.&#8221;  Maybe there&#8217;s a connection. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: EW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#238
Aikido.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#238<br />
Aikido.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Schafer</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Schafer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 21:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s just like in Back to the Future.  It&#039;s been erased....from existence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just like in Back to the Future.  It&#8217;s been erased&#8230;.from existence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 20:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #237 Skeptics love the graphs themselves because they are self-refuting. i.e. Warmers think they mean one thing, when what they actually mean is quite the opposite. (What is the martial art where you defend yourself by turning the offending force back on itself? Very satisfying.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #237 Skeptics love the graphs themselves because they are self-refuting. i.e. Warmers think they mean one thing, when what they actually mean is quite the opposite. (What is the martial art where you defend yourself by turning the offending force back on itself? Very satisfying.)</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Herbert</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/05/17/new-scientist-juckes-and-rob-wilson/#comment-88597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith Herbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 20:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1586#comment-88597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#226
Thanks Bender. I appreciate the response: very Benderian.
I assume you mean skeptics love to refute the validity of spaghetti graphs. I suspect New Scientist did not publish it as skeptics.
I accept by your description and others on this blog, the Wilson spaghetti graph is not “scientific” as it does not show the error bars. Then I might assume it was meant for a layperson such as myself. When I look at the graphs, I would not come up with the heading, “… all suggest that it is warmer now than at any time in the last 1000 years”. I would be more inclined toward, “temperature departures greater on the negative side than positive when compared with 1961-1990”.
It seems the New Scientist graph was not well thought out. Even Rob Wilson does not seem too excited about it. I do think they should at least correct the lowest ordinate from -1.0 to -1.2 as it would tend to exaggerate the curves below -0.8 (which further contradicts their title).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#226<br />
Thanks Bender. I appreciate the response: very Benderian.<br />
I assume you mean skeptics love to refute the validity of spaghetti graphs. I suspect New Scientist did not publish it as skeptics.<br />
I accept by your description and others on this blog, the Wilson spaghetti graph is not “scientific” as it does not show the error bars. Then I might assume it was meant for a layperson such as myself. When I look at the graphs, I would not come up with the heading, “… all suggest that it is warmer now than at any time in the last 1000 years”. I would be more inclined toward, “temperature departures greater on the negative side than positive when compared with 1961-1990”.<br />
It seems the New Scientist graph was not well thought out. Even Rob Wilson does not seem too excited about it. I do think they should at least correct the lowest ordinate from -1.0 to -1.2 as it would tend to exaggerate the curves below -0.8 (which further contradicts their title).</p>
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