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	<title>Comments on: Unthreaded #14</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 03:13:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: John A</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Boris:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Actually the atmosphere is a source of heat too, so it&#039;s kind of like an electric blanket.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually very unlike a blanket, electric or otherwise. Blankets (and greenhouses) warm by suppressing convection, and barely by suppressing radiation. The atmospheric &quot;blanket&quot; does the precise opposite.

&lt;blockquote&gt;But anyway, There is plenty of research on how much CO2 adds to temp. WHy would you think this research doesn&#039;t exist? I don&#039;t know about Barret, but Hug completely ignores decades of research and obsevration of the real atmosphere and simply repeats an experiment from nearly 100 years ago, getting a very wrong answer.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is plenty of evidence that in a bell jar in a laboratory, adding carbon dioxide should increase temperature all other things being equal. But in the real world, the rise of carbon dioxide does not precede temperature rise, but follows it by centuries. So a linear experiment with a near equilibrium scenario in a laboratory does not translate to a non-linear, very non-equilibrium scenario in the Earth&#039;s atmosphere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boris:</p>
<blockquote><p>Actually the atmosphere is a source of heat too, so it&#8217;s kind of like an electric blanket.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually very unlike a blanket, electric or otherwise. Blankets (and greenhouses) warm by suppressing convection, and barely by suppressing radiation. The atmospheric &#8220;blanket&#8221; does the precise opposite.</p>
<blockquote><p>But anyway, There is plenty of research on how much CO2 adds to temp. WHy would you think this research doesn&#8217;t exist? I don&#8217;t know about Barret, but Hug completely ignores decades of research and obsevration of the real atmosphere and simply repeats an experiment from nearly 100 years ago, getting a very wrong answer.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is plenty of evidence that in a bell jar in a laboratory, adding carbon dioxide should increase temperature all other things being equal. But in the real world, the rise of carbon dioxide does not precede temperature rise, but follows it by centuries. So a linear experiment with a near equilibrium scenario in a laboratory does not translate to a non-linear, very non-equilibrium scenario in the Earth&#8217;s atmosphere.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Sort of the body (through chemical reaction) can create heat the clothing just stops it from getting away too quickly. This is hand waving of course but it works as such what we really need is some good quantitative analysis of just how much increasing the CO2 slows down the heat bleed. The experiments of Heinz Hug and Jack Barrett are a tantalizing beginning in this direction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually the atmosphere is a source of heat too, so it&#039;s kind of like an electric blanket.

But anyway, There is plenty of research on how much CO2 adds to temp. WHy would you think this research doesn&#039;t exist? I don&#039;t know about Barret, but Hug completely ignores decades of research and obsevration of the real atmosphere and simply repeats an experiment from nearly 100 years ago, getting a very wrong answer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Sort of the body (through chemical reaction) can create heat the clothing just stops it from getting away too quickly. This is hand waving of course but it works as such what we really need is some good quantitative analysis of just how much increasing the CO2 slows down the heat bleed. The experiments of Heinz Hug and Jack Barrett are a tantalizing beginning in this direction.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually the atmosphere is a source of heat too, so it&#8217;s kind of like an electric blanket.</p>
<p>But anyway, There is plenty of research on how much CO2 adds to temp. WHy would you think this research doesn&#8217;t exist? I don&#8217;t know about Barret, but Hug completely ignores decades of research and obsevration of the real atmosphere and simply repeats an experiment from nearly 100 years ago, getting a very wrong answer.</p>
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		<title>By: EW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My son about Lockwood: &quot;Mum, the article is mentioned in all newspapers. However, they say that he worked on it only three months - isn&#039;t it too short? You muse about your articles at least a year...&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son about Lockwood: &#8220;Mum, the article is mentioned in all newspapers. However, they say that he worked on it only three months &#8211; isn&#8217;t it too short? You muse about your articles at least a year&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Filippo Turturici</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94218</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Filippo Turturici]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is how Stelvio pass, 2750m/9200ft, presented 4 days ago (of course, much of the snow has quickly melted under summer Sun):
http://upload9.postimage.org/208109/photo_hosting.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is how Stelvio pass, 2750m/9200ft, presented 4 days ago (of course, much of the snow has quickly melted under summer Sun):<br />
<a href="http://upload9.postimage.org/208109/photo_hosting.html" rel="nofollow">http://upload9.postimage.org/208109/photo_hosting.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Filippo Turturici</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Filippo Turturici]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anyway, we are reducing AGW month by month: we started this year with the IPCC last report, blaming man-made gases for all the warming since mid-XIXth century (then from LIA); then they too had to admit that solar activity was the main responsible for the temperature changes until 1940 (then 90 years of AGW less, still blaming industrialisation for following cooling then warming); now, neither Lockwood can deny that at least until 1985 Sun might be the main responsible of all temperature variation (thus just last 20 years of human interference: too fast and sudden to be true).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, we are reducing AGW month by month: we started this year with the IPCC last report, blaming man-made gases for all the warming since mid-XIXth century (then from LIA); then they too had to admit that solar activity was the main responsible for the temperature changes until 1940 (then 90 years of AGW less, still blaming industrialisation for following cooling then warming); now, neither Lockwood can deny that at least until 1985 Sun might be the main responsible of all temperature variation (thus just last 20 years of human interference: too fast and sudden to be true).</p>
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		<title>By: Philip B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94216</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 06:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Particulates/aerosols are the obvious candidate for what changed around 1985. In the developed world, particulate emissions were dramatically reduced around that time. At the same time, particulate emissions began to rise in places like China and India.

If the warming was due to reduced particulates in the developed world, then there should be a corresponding cooling trend in industrializing countries, as this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6VH3-4H68T8S-2&amp;_user=10&amp;_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2005&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=ec5b5a82894798800eb8c4ff84732900&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Indian study&lt;/a&gt; shows.

Unfortunately, the prevailing dogma of global climate change appears to preclude comparative climate studies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Particulates/aerosols are the obvious candidate for what changed around 1985. In the developed world, particulate emissions were dramatically reduced around that time. At the same time, particulate emissions began to rise in places like China and India.</p>
<p>If the warming was due to reduced particulates in the developed world, then there should be a corresponding cooling trend in industrializing countries, as this <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6VH3-4H68T8S-2&amp;_user=10&amp;_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2005&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=ec5b5a82894798800eb8c4ff84732900" rel="nofollow">Indian study</a> shows.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the prevailing dogma of global climate change appears to preclude comparative climate studies.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94215</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 05:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #331  Simply put, it is quite impossible for CO2 to perform the parlor tricks claimed by the pro-AGW contributors to the IPCC. Proof of the impossibility is the Earth&#039;s past experience with CO2 concentrations and temperatures during the most recent 600 million years. Current planetary temperatures and CO2 concentrations are abnormally low in comparison to most of the hundreds of millions of years preceding the most recent periods of ice ages. Biodiversity has suffered severely as a consequence of these abnormally low temperatures. Throughout these past climatary changes, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have demonsrated no consistent correlation with changes in planetary temperature. CO2 concentrations of 7,000ppm, 2,000ppm, and 1,000 ppm have dominated most of the Earth&#039;s biological existence with highly beneficial effects. The only periods in which the biosphere has been subjected to mass extinctions has been when the planetary climate experienced CO2 concentrations and temperatures like those of the present day and 1C with 100ppm CO2 less than the present. If the IPCC scenarios had any validity whatsoever, the Earth&#039;s atmosphere would long ago have been more akin to the present day atmosphere and climate of Venus. To test the IPCC claims against the planet&#039;s past experience use the IPPC formula to calculate what the planet&#039;s temperature scenario is supposed to be for atmospheric concentrations of CO2 ranging from 1,000ppm to 6,000ppm. Then compare the IPCC calculation/s to the actual past experience of the Earth. See what you think once you&#039;ve seen how their math and so-called models compare to 600 million years of reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #331  Simply put, it is quite impossible for CO2 to perform the parlor tricks claimed by the pro-AGW contributors to the IPCC. Proof of the impossibility is the Earth&#8217;s past experience with CO2 concentrations and temperatures during the most recent 600 million years. Current planetary temperatures and CO2 concentrations are abnormally low in comparison to most of the hundreds of millions of years preceding the most recent periods of ice ages. Biodiversity has suffered severely as a consequence of these abnormally low temperatures. Throughout these past climatary changes, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have demonsrated no consistent correlation with changes in planetary temperature. CO2 concentrations of 7,000ppm, 2,000ppm, and 1,000 ppm have dominated most of the Earth&#8217;s biological existence with highly beneficial effects. The only periods in which the biosphere has been subjected to mass extinctions has been when the planetary climate experienced CO2 concentrations and temperatures like those of the present day and 1C with 100ppm CO2 less than the present. If the IPCC scenarios had any validity whatsoever, the Earth&#8217;s atmosphere would long ago have been more akin to the present day atmosphere and climate of Venus. To test the IPCC claims against the planet&#8217;s past experience use the IPPC formula to calculate what the planet&#8217;s temperature scenario is supposed to be for atmospheric concentrations of CO2 ranging from 1,000ppm to 6,000ppm. Then compare the IPCC calculation/s to the actual past experience of the Earth. See what you think once you&#8217;ve seen how their math and so-called models compare to 600 million years of reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jan Pompe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[# 331 jae

I&#039;m going to be late for work.  The body in Australia at the moment would become hypothermic rather quickly without the blanket so in that sense the blanket &#039;raises&#039; the temperature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 331 jae</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to be late for work.  The body in Australia at the moment would become hypothermic rather quickly without the blanket so in that sense the blanket &#8216;raises&#8217; the temperature.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jan Pompe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[# 329 jae


&lt;blockquote&gt;Only the Sun can add heat (temperature),&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sort of the body (through chemical reaction) can create heat the clothing just stops it from getting away too quickly. This  is hand waving of course but it works as such what we really need  is some good quantitative analysis of just how much increasing the CO2 slows down the heat bleed.  The experiments of Heinz Hug and Jack Barrett are a tantalizing beginning in this direction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 329 jae</p>
<blockquote><p>Only the Sun can add heat (temperature),</p></blockquote>
<p>Sort of the body (through chemical reaction) can create heat the clothing just stops it from getting away too quickly. This  is hand waving of course but it works as such what we really need  is some good quantitative analysis of just how much increasing the CO2 slows down the heat bleed.  The experiments of Heinz Hug and Jack Barrett are a tantalizing beginning in this direction.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/06/unthreaded-14/#comment-94212</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1803#comment-94212</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[329: OK, not my smartest post, too much vino.  But, dammit, you can store energy with GHGs, but you cannot INCREASE the temperature with GHGs.  That&#039;s what is WRONG with the whole GHG theory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>329: OK, not my smartest post, too much vino.  But, dammit, you can store energy with GHGs, but you cannot INCREASE the temperature with GHGs.  That&#8217;s what is WRONG with the whole GHG theory.</p>
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