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	<title>Comments on: Responses from Parker</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Phil Jones and the China Network: Part 2 &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-244916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Jones and the China Network: Part 2 &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-244916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] that UHI was unimportant , with several posts on Peterson 2003 here and Parker 2006 here here here, also concluding that this analysis didn’t prove anything. Whatever the true contribution of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that UHI was unimportant , with several posts on Peterson 2003 here and Parker 2006 here here here, also concluding that this analysis didn’t prove anything. Whatever the true contribution of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: feet2thefire</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-220340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[feet2thefire]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-220340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The global warming rate at the stations used in the analysis, using all days’ data, is the same as that reported using all available stations by Jones, P.D. and A. Moberg&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Suspicious mind that I have, I just have to wonder how much time Phil Jones et al took to find met stations that could give a UHI of 0.05-0.06C higher than their overall met station population gave.  They couldn&#039;t come up with a mix that showed a negative UHI, but they sure as hell couldn&#039;t go with a delta as high as anecdotal says it should be.  They HAD to show a positive UHI, or all hell would have broken loose.

&lt;em&gt;This may be the reason for eliminating all the rural 75% of the met stations used, just to keep the average UHI in any subsequent studies within a certain range, so that the average could be seen as somehow plausible.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;

I&#039;m just sayin&#039;...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The global warming rate at the stations used in the analysis, using all days’ data, is the same as that reported using all available stations by Jones, P.D. and A. Moberg</p></blockquote>
<p>Suspicious mind that I have, I just have to wonder how much time Phil Jones et al took to find met stations that could give a UHI of 0.05-0.06C higher than their overall met station population gave.  They couldn&#8217;t come up with a mix that showed a negative UHI, but they sure as hell couldn&#8217;t go with a delta as high as anecdotal says it should be.  They HAD to show a positive UHI, or all hell would have broken loose.</p>
<p><em>This may be the reason for eliminating all the rural 75% of the met stations used, just to keep the average UHI in any subsequent studies within a certain range, so that the average could be seen as somehow plausible.</em><strong></strong></p>
<p>I&#8217;m just sayin&#8217;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: SteveSadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveSadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I have been noting, ad nauseum, anthropogenically caused / managed energy flux, and anthropogenic modifications of surfaces, flora and other environmental characteristics, are a specific term (or set of them) affecting the overall energy balance and apparent surface and low tropospheric temperature record. More proof:

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/11/28/terminating-warming-a-look-at-california/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I have been noting, ad nauseum, anthropogenically caused / managed energy flux, and anthropogenic modifications of surfaces, flora and other environmental characteristics, are a specific term (or set of them) affecting the overall energy balance and apparent surface and low tropospheric temperature record. More proof:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/11/28/terminating-warming-a-look-at-california/" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/11/28/terminating-warming-a-look-at-california/</a></p>
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		<title>By: TAC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TAC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SteveM (#53):  You&#039;re right; while thinking about the implications of Watt&#039;s findings, I had forgotten the details of Parker&#039;s approach. Oops!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveM (#53):  You&#8217;re right; while thinking about the implications of Watt&#8217;s findings, I had forgotten the details of Parker&#8217;s approach. Oops!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 14:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TAC, I think that you&#039;ve miscontrued Parker here. Parker&#039;s data set had global coverage (not just US HCN). Also he did not rely on distinctions between urban and rural made by others. He contrasted windy and calm days as classified by the NCEP 5x5 gridcell model.

HAving said that, if the NCEP gridcell model resulted in a classification that was full of errors, one would expect negligible difference between the two results. IMO this is so fraught with possible problems that IPCC can hardly conclude that anything was &quot;very likely&quot; or even &quot;likely&quot; based on this. &quot;Possible&quot; perhaps - but not much above that.

Also I think that the Peterson 2003 analysis has a knock-on effect for Parker 2005,2006.  PArker considers raw data more or less equivalent to the &quot;raw&quot; Peterson data which I graphed. Empirically there is trend difference between major city and even a very broad &quot;urban&quot; classification and PEterson-&quot;rural&quot; in the raw data. So PArker should have picked this up. His failure to do indicates that NCEP calm-windy is probably useless as way to measure UHI trends.

PArker also leaned heavily on Oke&#039;s canyon model of UHI which affects nighttime minima, while there seems to be evidence that asphalt UHI is material under some urban conditions and nighttime minima are not where this evidences itself most strongly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TAC, I think that you&#8217;ve miscontrued Parker here. Parker&#8217;s data set had global coverage (not just US HCN). Also he did not rely on distinctions between urban and rural made by others. He contrasted windy and calm days as classified by the NCEP 5&#215;5 gridcell model.</p>
<p>HAving said that, if the NCEP gridcell model resulted in a classification that was full of errors, one would expect negligible difference between the two results. IMO this is so fraught with possible problems that IPCC can hardly conclude that anything was &#8220;very likely&#8221; or even &#8220;likely&#8221; based on this. &#8220;Possible&#8221; perhaps &#8211; but not much above that.</p>
<p>Also I think that the Peterson 2003 analysis has a knock-on effect for Parker 2005,2006.  PArker considers raw data more or less equivalent to the &#8220;raw&#8221; Peterson data which I graphed. Empirically there is trend difference between major city and even a very broad &#8220;urban&#8221; classification and PEterson-&#8221;rural&#8221; in the raw data. So PArker should have picked this up. His failure to do indicates that NCEP calm-windy is probably useless as way to measure UHI trends.</p>
<p>PArker also leaned heavily on Oke&#8217;s canyon model of UHI which affects nighttime minima, while there seems to be evidence that asphalt UHI is material under some urban conditions and nighttime minima are not where this evidences itself most strongly.</p>
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		<title>By: TAC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TAC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 13:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Parker has shown is that the Urban and Rural stations, &lt;em&gt;as classified by the USHCN [?]&lt;/em&gt;, show statistically similar trends.  There are several possible explanations, the most obvious being the inference drawn by Parker (who, acting in good faith, assumed the data were OK). However, Parker&#039;s results -- not his conclusions -- are exactly what one would expect if the U/R classifications were full of errors (i.e. random); based on Anthony Watt&#039;s findings, this is not such a bad assumption.

It would be interesting to see what Parker&#039;s method would reveal if it were applied to properly classified (i.e.  into &lt;em&gt;Rural&lt;/em&gt; (= substantially unaffected by local human activity during the period of record) and &lt;em&gt;Urban&lt;/em&gt; (= urbanizing, or subject to increasing levels of development during the period of record) station data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Parker has shown is that the Urban and Rural stations, <em>as classified by the USHCN [?]</em>, show statistically similar trends.  There are several possible explanations, the most obvious being the inference drawn by Parker (who, acting in good faith, assumed the data were OK). However, Parker&#8217;s results &#8212; not his conclusions &#8212; are exactly what one would expect if the U/R classifications were full of errors (i.e. random); based on Anthony Watt&#8217;s findings, this is not such a bad assumption.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see what Parker&#8217;s method would reveal if it were applied to properly classified (i.e.  into <em>Rural</em> (= substantially unaffected by local human activity during the period of record) and <em>Urban</em> (= urbanizing, or subject to increasing levels of development during the period of record) station data.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I keep getting back to Parker&#039;s statement, that obtaining temperature measurements at sites without an UHI effect, could explain why his trend indicators show little or no UHI effect at these stations.  It comes down to the apparent judgment of almost all participants in this debate that an UHI effect exists and is probably quite significant, but the differences lay in the whether and how these UHI effects have influenced temperature measurements at the “official” measuring sites.

Given that a significant and agreed upon UHI effect exists and there seem to be objective methods of determining where it would be most and least prevalent, why would not a rather simple study be available whereby contrasting locations of UHI are measured for temperatures and wind in order to better test Parker&#039;s hypothesis?

What I find most curious about this and other studies involving important global warming issues is that some rather indirect methods are used to measure trends with little attention being paid to better understanding the underlying basics principles and processes involved.  It is like “well, we did that and it confirms what we had already assumed so let us move on (without taking a deeper look into the situation).”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep getting back to Parker&#8217;s statement, that obtaining temperature measurements at sites without an UHI effect, could explain why his trend indicators show little or no UHI effect at these stations.  It comes down to the apparent judgment of almost all participants in this debate that an UHI effect exists and is probably quite significant, but the differences lay in the whether and how these UHI effects have influenced temperature measurements at the “official” measuring sites.</p>
<p>Given that a significant and agreed upon UHI effect exists and there seem to be objective methods of determining where it would be most and least prevalent, why would not a rather simple study be available whereby contrasting locations of UHI are measured for temperatures and wind in order to better test Parker&#8217;s hypothesis?</p>
<p>What I find most curious about this and other studies involving important global warming issues is that some rather indirect methods are used to measure trends with little attention being paid to better understanding the underlying basics principles and processes involved.  It is like “well, we did that and it confirms what we had already assumed so let us move on (without taking a deeper look into the situation).”</p>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Bob,

 What I did was bin the Wind Direction into two groups.
 1. W and NW
 2. All others.

 Thne looked at Tmax and Tmin in these two groups. Basically the W&amp;NW winds could not blow UHI
 away because they look like warmer winds. If the air temp above the boundary layer is warmer
 that the boudary layer I would think that would impair heat transfer to the sky right?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bob,</p>
<p> What I did was bin the Wind Direction into two groups.<br />
 1. W and NW<br />
 2. All others.</p>
<p> Thne looked at Tmax and Tmin in these two groups. Basically the W&amp;NW winds could not blow UHI<br />
 away because they look like warmer winds. If the air temp above the boundary layer is warmer<br />
 that the boudary layer I would think that would impair heat transfer to the sky right?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bob Koss</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Koss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the months of the year with the fastest and slowest mean wind speed to compare with diurnal temperature. All the data is from the station and not gridded. If there is anything to be found I&#039;d expect it to show up. I don&#039;t see much.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the months of the year with the fastest and slowest mean wind speed to compare with diurnal temperature. All the data is from the station and not gridded. If there is anything to be found I&#8217;d expect it to show up. I don&#8217;t see much.</p>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/10/responses-from-parker/#comment-94762</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1813#comment-94762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does it get Windy in Fresno?

First off I like to work bottom up, So I picked Fresno as an example.It&#039;s from Parkers
List. And yes, has some issues.

I&#039;ve been stuggling with this Parker definition of Windy/Calm.

Parker defines &quot;Windy&quot; as the top 1/3 of wind speeds for the GRID. Calm is bottom Third.

He did a correlation of grid to station for 26 sites. To ascertain if you can use grid data
to &quot;represent&quot; the site. He thinks you can.

I don&#039;t think it gets windy in Fresno.

What does windy mean? You feel cooler when the wind blows over your skin. Why, because that boundary
layer of air created by those little tiny hairs, get disturbed, gets mixed and heat exchange happens.

Now I AM HAIRY, I don&#039;t chill so easily. I have a nice fat boundary layer of air. So a smooth fellow
will get chilly quicker than me. Put another way, I require higher wind velocities to mix the air
around my body. You get goosebumps ( in creasing your boundary layer) before I do.  I am hairy like an animal.

How hairy is Fresno? Simply, what velocity of wind does it take to create turbulant vertical  mixing
and heat exchange? The Top 1/3 of the wind speed distribution? Top 1/6? top 1/20th?

It&#039;s site specific. It&#039;s wind direction specific. In Fresno when the wind blows in a W or NW direction
( from death valley I suppose)its a heater box. These winds look to happen well over 70% of the time
(Oh, I think the runway at the airport might be aligned on the NW axis, something to check.)

First a look at velocity. Average wind speed. measured at Fresno state from 1982- 2006
2 Meters above the surface.

( fresno state is]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does it get Windy in Fresno?</p>
<p>First off I like to work bottom up, So I picked Fresno as an example.It&#8217;s from Parkers<br />
List. And yes, has some issues.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been stuggling with this Parker definition of Windy/Calm.</p>
<p>Parker defines &#8220;Windy&#8221; as the top 1/3 of wind speeds for the GRID. Calm is bottom Third.</p>
<p>He did a correlation of grid to station for 26 sites. To ascertain if you can use grid data<br />
to &#8220;represent&#8221; the site. He thinks you can.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it gets windy in Fresno.</p>
<p>What does windy mean? You feel cooler when the wind blows over your skin. Why, because that boundary<br />
layer of air created by those little tiny hairs, get disturbed, gets mixed and heat exchange happens.</p>
<p>Now I AM HAIRY, I don&#8217;t chill so easily. I have a nice fat boundary layer of air. So a smooth fellow<br />
will get chilly quicker than me. Put another way, I require higher wind velocities to mix the air<br />
around my body. You get goosebumps ( in creasing your boundary layer) before I do.  I am hairy like an animal.</p>
<p>How hairy is Fresno? Simply, what velocity of wind does it take to create turbulant vertical  mixing<br />
and heat exchange? The Top 1/3 of the wind speed distribution? Top 1/6? top 1/20th?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s site specific. It&#8217;s wind direction specific. In Fresno when the wind blows in a W or NW direction<br />
( from death valley I suppose)its a heater box. These winds look to happen well over 70% of the time<br />
(Oh, I think the runway at the airport might be aligned on the NW axis, something to check.)</p>
<p>First a look at velocity. Average wind speed. measured at Fresno state from 1982- 2006<br />
2 Meters above the surface.</p>
<p>( fresno state is</p>
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