<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Milestone</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 20 Jun 2013 02:13:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 06:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;matt, you have just applied the Central Limit Theorem. In doing so, you assumed that each day&#039;s high temperature independent of every other day&#039;s high temperature.

When the observations may be correlated across time and/space, this naive application of the CLT is not valid. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Disagree. While I agree that there is day-to-day correlation between temps, we need just strong guarantee that there will be 0.25 degree (half the rounding error) of change between the days. Browsing temps at weather underground shows that we have that in spades. Once you can be very certain that you&#039;ll have at least a 0.25 degree of variability between the highs of two days, then I&#039;d assert you can treat each day as random.

Of course, you could crank something out in excel in 5 minutes to prove me wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>matt, you have just applied the Central Limit Theorem. In doing so, you assumed that each day&#8217;s high temperature independent of every other day&#8217;s high temperature.</p>
<p>When the observations may be correlated across time and/space, this naive application of the CLT is not valid. </p></blockquote>
<p>Disagree. While I agree that there is day-to-day correlation between temps, we need just strong guarantee that there will be 0.25 degree (half the rounding error) of change between the days. Browsing temps at weather underground shows that we have that in spades. Once you can be very certain that you&#8217;ll have at least a 0.25 degree of variability between the highs of two days, then I&#8217;d assert you can treat each day as random.</p>
<p>Of course, you could crank something out in excel in 5 minutes to prove me wrong.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve emailed Peterson and asked him for a list of the 289 sites. Given that it&#039;s NOAA, he&#039;ll probably send the information. Russell Vose was quite pleasant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve emailed Peterson and asked him for a list of the 289 sites. Given that it&#8217;s NOAA, he&#8217;ll probably send the information. Russell Vose was quite pleasant.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sam Urbinto</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Urbinto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#81, #88
&quot;Does Peterson name his 289 stations ?&quot;

I haven&#039;t read it, but I doubt they were named; it doesn&#039;t seem anyone leaves much of an audit trail.  It seems to me to be akin to other non-replicatable and vague (in some or all ways) studies and surveys:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords &quot;climate change&quot; (9).

9. The first year for which the database consistently published abstracts was 1993. Some abstracts were deleted from our analysis because, although the authors had put &quot;climate change&quot; in their key words, the paper was not about climate change. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

We know what happened to the person that tried to replicate it, given the errors and omissions in that paragraph and vagueness of the note.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#81, #88<br />
&#8220;Does Peterson name his 289 stations ?&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read it, but I doubt they were named; it doesn&#8217;t seem anyone leaves much of an audit trail.  It seems to me to be akin to other non-replicatable and vague (in some or all ways) studies and surveys:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords &#8220;climate change&#8221; (9).</p>
<p>9. The first year for which the database consistently published abstracts was 1993. Some abstracts were deleted from our analysis because, although the authors had put &#8220;climate change&#8221; in their key words, the paper was not about climate change. </p></blockquote>
<p>We know what happened to the person that tried to replicate it, given the errors and omissions in that paragraph and vagueness of the note.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE 81.

 I have been unable to find the list.

 What we do know is that with 231 stations surveyed, I have yet to see an Urban site located
in a cool park. maybe the next 990 will be situated as Parker described.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE 81.</p>
<p> I have been unable to find the list.</p>
<p> What we do know is that with 231 stations surveyed, I have yet to see an Urban site located<br />
in a cool park. maybe the next 990 will be situated as Parker described.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Furthermore, when a high fraction of the audited sites are discovered to have problems, the claim that &quot;we will just assume that none of the unaudited sites will have any problems, would be laughed out of court.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore, when a high fraction of the audited sites are discovered to have problems, the claim that &#8220;we will just assume that none of the unaudited sites will have any problems, would be laughed out of court.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE 83.

 That was my next argument.

 I think Anthony&#039;s project addresses THREE issues.

 1. Prior claims of proper siting. Previous studies have relied on or claimed that the sites meet standards.
    Anthony&#039;s study puts these claims INTO QUESTION. they may survive the question, but the Onus is on
    them to prove it. I view this as an extension of the Peilke Davey paper and a challenge to the
    criticisms of it. Like you said, P &amp;D were criticized on the basis of limited sampling. Watts el at
    is a rational response to that criticsm of P&amp;D.

 2. Potential Bias in the land record. This is obviously the issue that causes all the heat and publicity.
    One issue that must annoy the AGW folks is the drip drip drip of site corruption. The longer
     the project takes the more drip drip drip. A smart opponent would get the photo job done as quickly
    as possible, and not engage in Nixonian stonewalling. A smart opponent would take charge of the
    re analysis and get on the offensive and not send rabbetts to engage in a proxy war.

 3. Provide quality sites that the CRN can be coordinated with. Currently the CRN plan is to link the
    CRN sites to the nearest neighbor in the historical network. They should consider the nearest
    quality site.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE 83.</p>
<p> That was my next argument.</p>
<p> I think Anthony&#8217;s project addresses THREE issues.</p>
<p> 1. Prior claims of proper siting. Previous studies have relied on or claimed that the sites meet standards.<br />
    Anthony&#8217;s study puts these claims INTO QUESTION. they may survive the question, but the Onus is on<br />
    them to prove it. I view this as an extension of the Peilke Davey paper and a challenge to the<br />
    criticisms of it. Like you said, P &amp;D were criticized on the basis of limited sampling. Watts el at<br />
    is a rational response to that criticsm of P&amp;D.</p>
<p> 2. Potential Bias in the land record. This is obviously the issue that causes all the heat and publicity.<br />
    One issue that must annoy the AGW folks is the drip drip drip of site corruption. The longer<br />
     the project takes the more drip drip drip. A smart opponent would get the photo job done as quickly<br />
    as possible, and not engage in Nixonian stonewalling. A smart opponent would take charge of the<br />
    re analysis and get on the offensive and not send rabbetts to engage in a proxy war.</p>
<p> 3. Provide quality sites that the CRN can be coordinated with. Currently the CRN plan is to link the<br />
    CRN sites to the nearest neighbor in the historical network. They should consider the nearest<br />
    quality site.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96657</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In every audit that I have been involved with, the audit only continues until one problem site is found.
At that point the audit concludes with a result of fails audit.

It is then up to the person being audited to prove that the failed site had been fixed and that all other sites had been examined and that they do not suffer from the same problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In every audit that I have been involved with, the audit only continues until one problem site is found.<br />
At that point the audit concludes with a result of fails audit.</p>
<p>It is then up to the person being audited to prove that the failed site had been fixed and that all other sites had been examined and that they do not suffer from the same problems.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Douglas Hoyt</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96656</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas Hoyt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karl said
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;their results do not show that a large number of USHCN stations have a comparable exposure problem&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and at the same time Karl had photographs of all the stations in his possession. Pielke is now trying to obtain copies of these photos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl said</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;their results do not show that a large number of USHCN stations have a comparable exposure problem&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>and at the same time Karl had photographs of all the stations in his possession. Pielke is now trying to obtain copies of these photos.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96655</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are a couple of quotes from Vose (Karl) et al 2005, the official reply to criticisms of Davey and Pielke of sites in eastern Colorado:

First they stated:
&lt;blockquote&gt;the USHCN database could definitely benefit from improved site exposure documentation. Under ideal conditions, this new documentation would meet the high standards set forth by Davey and Pielke (2005).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So when you comments by people criticizing the efforts to document stations, keep in mind that the new documentation at surfacestations.org is trying to meet or exceed the &quot;high standards&quot; of Davey and Peilke 2005 - standards endorsed by USHCN itself in an &quot;ideal&quot; world.

They also threw a type of gauntlet at Davey and Pielke saying that they had not demonstrated poor sites anywhere other than eastern Colorado:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Furthermore, their analysis was a static assessment of site exposures over a relatively small part of the country, an area within which station exposures varied considerably. In other words, their results do not show that a large number of USHCN stations have a comparable exposure problem,&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ordinary businesses, confronted with the defects in eastern Colorado identified in 2005, would have done their own survey to ensure that other sites didn&#039;t have such exposure problems. NOAA negligently failed to do so. Anthony and others are showing what Vose et al 2005 challenged: a large number of stations do have comparable exposture problems - actually many are worse.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a couple of quotes from Vose (Karl) et al 2005, the official reply to criticisms of Davey and Pielke of sites in eastern Colorado:</p>
<p>First they stated:</p>
<blockquote><p>the USHCN database could definitely benefit from improved site exposure documentation. Under ideal conditions, this new documentation would meet the high standards set forth by Davey and Pielke (2005).
</p></blockquote>
<p>So when you comments by people criticizing the efforts to document stations, keep in mind that the new documentation at surfacestations.org is trying to meet or exceed the &#8220;high standards&#8221; of Davey and Peilke 2005 &#8211; standards endorsed by USHCN itself in an &#8220;ideal&#8221; world.</p>
<p>They also threw a type of gauntlet at Davey and Pielke saying that they had not demonstrated poor sites anywhere other than eastern Colorado:</p>
<blockquote><p>Furthermore, their analysis was a static assessment of site exposures over a relatively small part of the country, an area within which station exposures varied considerably. In other words, their results do not show that a large number of USHCN stations have a comparable exposure problem,</p></blockquote>
<p>Ordinary businesses, confronted with the defects in eastern Colorado identified in 2005, would have done their own survey to ensure that other sites didn&#8217;t have such exposure problems. NOAA negligently failed to do so. Anthony and others are showing what Vose et al 2005 challenged: a large number of stations do have comparable exposture problems &#8211; actually many are worse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BarryW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/07/28/milestone/#comment-96654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BarryW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1832#comment-96654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I take the title of this site at face value, it is an audit of climate research and data collection.  Audits don&#039;t necessarily look at every piece of data, they check a representative sample to determine if proper procedures and quality controls are being employed.  It&#039;s not up to the auditors to fix the problems, no more than it is for a reviewer of a paper to fix the problems, only identify them.  I&#039;ve been on both ends of an audit (in the software world) and being on the receiving end is not always pleasant.  If I were confronted by audit results such as Anthony&#039;s site surveys thus far, my auditors would have gone away telling me they&#039;d come back when I had actually done what I was supposed to do or show cause why my contract shouldn&#039;t be canceled for non performance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take the title of this site at face value, it is an audit of climate research and data collection.  Audits don&#8217;t necessarily look at every piece of data, they check a representative sample to determine if proper procedures and quality controls are being employed.  It&#8217;s not up to the auditors to fix the problems, no more than it is for a reviewer of a paper to fix the problems, only identify them.  I&#8217;ve been on both ends of an audit (in the software world) and being on the receiving end is not always pleasant.  If I were confronted by audit results such as Anthony&#8217;s site surveys thus far, my auditors would have gone away telling me they&#8217;d come back when I had actually done what I was supposed to do or show cause why my contract shouldn&#8217;t be canceled for non performance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
