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	<title>Comments on: The USHCN Basketball Team</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: dennis</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97907</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dennis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know the Odessa area. It is too bad
that they sited the station where they did.
There are many other better locations in that
area outside of town that would meet all
requirements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know the Odessa area. It is too bad<br />
that they sited the station where they did.<br />
There are many other better locations in that<br />
area outside of town that would meet all<br />
requirements.</p>
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		<title>By: John Goetz</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Goetz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark T (#26) points out that the LLN is a theorem of probability. Basically, the more samples I have of an independent and identically distributed random variable, the more confidence I have that the observed mean approaches the expected mean, plus or minus some guardband.

The simplest example is that of a coin flip. If I flip a fair coin 1000 times I would expect to see the percentage of heads approach 50%, but I would be quite surprised if it were exactly 50%.

The question is, how large is large? If I move to a more complex variable, such as a six-sided die, how many rolls of the die do I need to have confidence that the observed mean is within some guardband of the expected mean of 3.5? If I make it two or more die, how many additional rolls are required to converge on the expected mean, again within a specific guardband?

The number of dice rolls required for convergence does not change for loaded (biased) dice. If a die is loaded to favor six, for example, the expected mean might be 4.3, but 1000 or so rolls are still required to have confidence (guardbanded) in the observed mean.

When applying the LLN to temperature measurements, we need to think of the problem in many, many more dimensions. Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:

1) How many measurements of a specific thermometer by a specific observer  are required to have confidence in the (guardbanded) accuracy of the observer&#039;s reading of the thermometer?

2) How many measurements of temperature are needed in a single day to have confidence in the mean temperature (for example, a cold February day where the temperature jumps for a two hour period would register an artificially warm average if only daily min/max are used).

3) How many measurements are required in a specific grid cell to have confidence in the cell&#039;s average?

One might argue that millions of thermometer readings are available, but one must also recognize that those readings have space and time dimensions to them as well. If I want to compare the temperature of 1999 with 1899, are 365 daily averages from each year &quot;large enough&quot;? Are they independent enough (remember, this is a probability theory requiring variable independence). Is the number of stations sampling the temperature on a given day in a given cell large enough? Etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark T (#26) points out that the LLN is a theorem of probability. Basically, the more samples I have of an independent and identically distributed random variable, the more confidence I have that the observed mean approaches the expected mean, plus or minus some guardband.</p>
<p>The simplest example is that of a coin flip. If I flip a fair coin 1000 times I would expect to see the percentage of heads approach 50%, but I would be quite surprised if it were exactly 50%.</p>
<p>The question is, how large is large? If I move to a more complex variable, such as a six-sided die, how many rolls of the die do I need to have confidence that the observed mean is within some guardband of the expected mean of 3.5? If I make it two or more die, how many additional rolls are required to converge on the expected mean, again within a specific guardband?</p>
<p>The number of dice rolls required for convergence does not change for loaded (biased) dice. If a die is loaded to favor six, for example, the expected mean might be 4.3, but 1000 or so rolls are still required to have confidence (guardbanded) in the observed mean.</p>
<p>When applying the LLN to temperature measurements, we need to think of the problem in many, many more dimensions. Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:</p>
<p>1) How many measurements of a specific thermometer by a specific observer  are required to have confidence in the (guardbanded) accuracy of the observer&#8217;s reading of the thermometer?</p>
<p>2) How many measurements of temperature are needed in a single day to have confidence in the mean temperature (for example, a cold February day where the temperature jumps for a two hour period would register an artificially warm average if only daily min/max are used).</p>
<p>3) How many measurements are required in a specific grid cell to have confidence in the cell&#8217;s average?</p>
<p>One might argue that millions of thermometer readings are available, but one must also recognize that those readings have space and time dimensions to them as well. If I want to compare the temperature of 1999 with 1899, are 365 daily averages from each year &#8220;large enough&#8221;? Are they independent enough (remember, this is a probability theory requiring variable independence). Is the number of stations sampling the temperature on a given day in a given cell large enough? Etc.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveSadlov</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97905</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveSadlov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Somewhat difficult to tell from the photo, but with the chain link fences in the front yards and no trees, that looks like an, um, &quot;interesting&quot; neighborhood. I&#039;d worry about theft of the unit! Or perhaps, worry about it getting tagged by graffiti!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somewhat difficult to tell from the photo, but with the chain link fences in the front yards and no trees, that looks like an, um, &#8220;interesting&#8221; neighborhood. I&#8217;d worry about theft of the unit! Or perhaps, worry about it getting tagged by graffiti!</p>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97904</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE 34.

 I moved from a cold climate to a warm one. Of course its warmer!

 In the end. There is a difference between

 1. weighing the same gold bar on the same calibrated scale over and over.
 2. Weighing a fat lady on a yoyo diet with a scale that gets hit by basketballs
    on every odd tuesday.

 That is my statstical insight]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE 34.</p>
<p> I moved from a cold climate to a warm one. Of course its warmer!</p>
<p> In the end. There is a difference between</p>
<p> 1. weighing the same gold bar on the same calibrated scale over and over.<br />
 2. Weighing a fat lady on a yoyo diet with a scale that gets hit by basketballs<br />
    on every odd tuesday.</p>
<p> That is my statstical insight</p>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97903</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve heard that some filters have memory, and that some people filter their memories.
But this is getting ridiculous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve heard that some filters have memory, and that some people filter their memories.<br />
But this is getting ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97902</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jan Pompe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#32 Steve


&lt;blockquote&gt;So, I suppose, using the LLN, if 1 million people tell me it was warmer 25 years ago than today… that
even though they are imprecise instruments, the result is magically fixed by the LLN.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Should be just fine if you adjust for memory smoothing over time.

Cackle]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#32 Steve</p>
<blockquote><p>So, I suppose, using the LLN, if 1 million people tell me it was warmer 25 years ago than today… that<br />
even though they are imprecise instruments, the result is magically fixed by the LLN.</p></blockquote>
<p>Should be just fine if you adjust for memory smoothing over time.</p>
<p>Cackle</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97901</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97901</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re # 31 Dan Hughes

You are quite correct. The quote to which you refer shows confusion of accuracy and precision. There are many forms of &quot;measurement bias&quot; or &quot;inaccuracy&quot; that are unaffected by the number of obvervations made. As a simple example, using your ruler a meter long, if the operator chose one a foot long by mistake, all readings would have gross errors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re # 31 Dan Hughes</p>
<p>You are quite correct. The quote to which you refer shows confusion of accuracy and precision. There are many forms of &#8220;measurement bias&#8221; or &#8220;inaccuracy&#8221; that are unaffected by the number of obvervations made. As a simple example, using your ruler a meter long, if the operator chose one a foot long by mistake, all readings would have gross errors.</p>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97900</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lets see.

 people are pretty crappy at guessing the temperature. They are an instrument but they have
 a pretty big error. Still, as our friends tell us the LLN fixes everything.
 And if 800 people can guess the weight of a bull to one pound, then imagine what a million
 could do guessing temperature ?

 So, I suppose, using the LLN, if 1 million people tell me it was warmer 25 years ago than today... that
 even though they are imprecise instruments, the result is magically fixed by the LLN.

 ( a joke of course, or is it?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets see.</p>
<p> people are pretty crappy at guessing the temperature. They are an instrument but they have<br />
 a pretty big error. Still, as our friends tell us the LLN fixes everything.<br />
 And if 800 people can guess the weight of a bull to one pound, then imagine what a million<br />
 could do guessing temperature ?</p>
<p> So, I suppose, using the LLN, if 1 million people tell me it was warmer 25 years ago than today&#8230; that<br />
 even though they are imprecise instruments, the result is magically fixed by the LLN.</p>
<p> ( a joke of course, or is it?)</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Hughes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97899</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Hughes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do not understand this comment from above: &quot;But it is a powerful force and especially does away with the worries about measurement unit resolution.&quot;

I think a ruler marked with a resolution of one meter cannot be used to obtain an accurate measurement of an object of length one micron no matter how large the number of attempts. In this case &quot;accurate&quot; meaning that the difference between the actual length of the object and the mean of the reported measurements is a small fraction of the actual length of the object.

What am I missing? Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not understand this comment from above: &#8220;But it is a powerful force and especially does away with the worries about measurement unit resolution.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think a ruler marked with a resolution of one meter cannot be used to obtain an accurate measurement of an object of length one micron no matter how large the number of attempts. In this case &#8220;accurate&#8221; meaning that the difference between the actual length of the object and the mean of the reported measurements is a small fraction of the actual length of the object.</p>
<p>What am I missing? Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/the-ushcn-basketball-team/#comment-97898</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1860#comment-97898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From the temperature measuring site pictures, I obtain the view that we are not really considering a simple measuring error, amenable to greater sampling, and a similar bias in &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; measurements.  What we have potentially are many sites with varying degrees of bias without knowing how varying or in what direction.  This means that more measurements are not necessarily better.

Under the assumption that all these sites (or at least nearly all) are compliant with the stated process and specifications, one could use more sampling to reduce sampling errors &#039;€&quot; and, of course, eliminate the uncertainty of bias errors.  Correction procedures are in place in attempts to reduce biases that can be detected when they occur over very short periods of time but it is not clear how well they would work where many sites are out of compliance and particularly when changes can occur over long time periods.  I would guess that the assumption of nearly complete compliance is part and partial to the calculation of uncertainties and is why the specifications are developed and assumed to be adhered to.

A further concern that I have is in not knowing how the (lack of) coverage uncertainty would be handled/calculated if the assumption of compliance, or a proper and complete correction for it, in almost all sites was not found to be the case.

A poster recently pointed to the obvious truism that one cannot test quality into a product in reference to making adjustments to the data product, but I think in these cases, we are not at all certain how much quality is in the product or how much of the uncertainty calculations depend on an assumption of that quality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the temperature measuring site pictures, I obtain the view that we are not really considering a simple measuring error, amenable to greater sampling, and a similar bias in <b>all</b> measurements.  What we have potentially are many sites with varying degrees of bias without knowing how varying or in what direction.  This means that more measurements are not necessarily better.</p>
<p>Under the assumption that all these sites (or at least nearly all) are compliant with the stated process and specifications, one could use more sampling to reduce sampling errors &#8216;€&#8221; and, of course, eliminate the uncertainty of bias errors.  Correction procedures are in place in attempts to reduce biases that can be detected when they occur over very short periods of time but it is not clear how well they would work where many sites are out of compliance and particularly when changes can occur over long time periods.  I would guess that the assumption of nearly complete compliance is part and partial to the calculation of uncertainties and is why the specifications are developed and assumed to be adhered to.</p>
<p>A further concern that I have is in not knowing how the (lack of) coverage uncertainty would be handled/calculated if the assumption of compliance, or a proper and complete correction for it, in almost all sites was not found to be the case.</p>
<p>A poster recently pointed to the obvious truism that one cannot test quality into a product in reference to making adjustments to the data product, but I think in these cases, we are not at all certain how much quality is in the product or how much of the uncertainty calculations depend on an assumption of that quality.</p>
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