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	<title>Comments on: Almagre Strip Bark</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Tamino and the Magic Flute &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-330121</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tamino and the Magic Flute &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-330121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] but have nothing to do with CO2 fertilization or previously identified issues. We found (See here here ) that strip bark forms can result in enormous (6-7 standard deviation) growth pulses in one [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] but have nothing to do with CO2 fertilization or previously identified issues. We found (See here here ) that strip bark forms can result in enormous (6-7 standard deviation) growth pulses in one [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Re=post of &#8220;Tamino and the Magic Flute&#8221; &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-236392</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Re=post of &#8220;Tamino and the Magic Flute&#8221; &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 02:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-236392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] but have nothing to do with CO2 fertilization or previously identified issues. We found (See here here ) that strip bark forms can result in enormous (6-7 standard deviation) growth pulses in one [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] but have nothing to do with CO2 fertilization or previously identified issues. We found (See here here ) that strip bark forms can result in enormous (6-7 standard deviation) growth pulses in one [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Henning</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112128</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henning]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[snip- I&#039;m sorry that I can&#039;t allow these links without getting involved in irrelevant controversy.]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[snip- I'm sorry that I can't allow these links without getting involved in irrelevant controversy.]</p>
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		<title>By: MrPete</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MrPete]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the case of snowflakes/dendrites, of course it&#039;s math/chemistry/physics.

Biology&#039;s a bit less predictable.

(My dad&#039;s PhD thesis was early work on the mathematics of dendritic growth. Turned out to be a rather difficult problem. I never understood the maths, but (as a child) I sure understood helping hand-collate copies of a 200+ page thesis ;) )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the case of snowflakes/dendrites, of course it&#8217;s math/chemistry/physics.</p>
<p>Biology&#8217;s a bit less predictable.</p>
<p>(My dad&#8217;s PhD thesis was early work on the mathematics of dendritic growth. Turned out to be a rather difficult problem. I never understood the maths, but (as a child) I sure understood helping hand-collate copies of a 200+ page thesis <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>By: Don Keiller</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Keiller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geoff, re#63. &quot;How do trees know math?&quot;
They don&#039;t - in the same way that snowflakes don&#039;t know maths, but nevertheless turn out geomtrically Symmetrical intricate patterns. If someone could fully understand the biological basis of how the patterns of cell division were controlled to do this, they would be Nobel Laureates (but not like Gore)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff, re#63. &#8220;How do trees know math?&#8221;<br />
They don&#8217;t &#8211; in the same way that snowflakes don&#8217;t know maths, but nevertheless turn out geomtrically Symmetrical intricate patterns. If someone could fully understand the biological basis of how the patterns of cell division were controlled to do this, they would be Nobel Laureates (but not like Gore)</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re # 63 Don
Phyllotaxis etc

Might be OT a bit, but then if you have a missing branch you might be able to get an idea of where it was. Long shot, though.

I have a half dozen published papers on the subject and knew one of the cutting edge scientists, a physicist, the late Dr John Rouse, from Melbourne Uni. Try &quot;Basis for Synthesis of Spiral Lattice Quasicrystals&quot;, Bursill L.A. et al, Modern Physics Letters B, Vol 3, No 14 (1989) 1071-85. I have a feeling that the 5/2 displacement is no longer supported by evidence, and I do not know of proof that maximum shading is the reason for the geometry.

Mention is often made of phyllotaxis in sunflowers. The &quot;spooky&quot; parts are (a) that the flower starts growing from the inside, yet later the outer seeds become separated by the magic angle and (b) the count of left-curving and right-curving parastichy is USUALLY two consecutive Fibonacci numbers - but sometimes a Lucas series is implicated. How do trees know math?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re # 63 Don<br />
Phyllotaxis etc</p>
<p>Might be OT a bit, but then if you have a missing branch you might be able to get an idea of where it was. Long shot, though.</p>
<p>I have a half dozen published papers on the subject and knew one of the cutting edge scientists, a physicist, the late Dr John Rouse, from Melbourne Uni. Try &#8220;Basis for Synthesis of Spiral Lattice Quasicrystals&#8221;, Bursill L.A. et al, Modern Physics Letters B, Vol 3, No 14 (1989) 1071-85. I have a feeling that the 5/2 displacement is no longer supported by evidence, and I do not know of proof that maximum shading is the reason for the geometry.</p>
<p>Mention is often made of phyllotaxis in sunflowers. The &#8220;spooky&#8221; parts are (a) that the flower starts growing from the inside, yet later the outer seeds become separated by the magic angle and (b) the count of left-curving and right-curving parastichy is USUALLY two consecutive Fibonacci numbers &#8211; but sometimes a Lucas series is implicated. How do trees know math?</p>
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		<title>By: MarkR</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112124</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some observations:

A large proportion of trees pictured seem to me have been victim of lightning strike. Evidence being number which have been split clean in two, and a number which have grown forked, but where I think I can see evidence of healed split eg. in tree second from left post 71.

Tree to left of tree 31 seems to be younger than tree 31, but has grown taller and straighter. Seems to me that lightening strike leads to greater girth as opposed to height.

Older trees are more likely to have been struck by lightning, and therefor more likely to have had growth influenced by lightning damage as opposed to other limiting factors like temp or water.

In general looking at all the tree picture, I was struck by the lack of uniformity of height, girth, and general overall dimensions. I have seen pictures of Redwood forests in the US, or pine forests in Europe were the trees were all very similar.

I think that in addition to having reservations about strip bark pine, there should be a more general reservation on pines, or any tree in a lightning prone area, or with marginal sustenance,

The trees are sometimes in groups, sometimes isolated. The isolated trees must be in locations where existance is marginal, otherwise others would have grown nearby.

Overall, I think that the selection of this type of tree, in a location where lightning strike is endemic, and where some of the sustaining factors must have been marginal for a long period of time. is a very poor choice for using tree ring growth as a proxy for temperature, aside from all the reservations already expressed. A possible proof of that would be some kind of cross correlation between trees. If they don&#039;t correlate highly between themselves, shouldn&#039;t they be ruled out?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some observations:</p>
<p>A large proportion of trees pictured seem to me have been victim of lightning strike. Evidence being number which have been split clean in two, and a number which have grown forked, but where I think I can see evidence of healed split eg. in tree second from left post 71.</p>
<p>Tree to left of tree 31 seems to be younger than tree 31, but has grown taller and straighter. Seems to me that lightening strike leads to greater girth as opposed to height.</p>
<p>Older trees are more likely to have been struck by lightning, and therefor more likely to have had growth influenced by lightning damage as opposed to other limiting factors like temp or water.</p>
<p>In general looking at all the tree picture, I was struck by the lack of uniformity of height, girth, and general overall dimensions. I have seen pictures of Redwood forests in the US, or pine forests in Europe were the trees were all very similar.</p>
<p>I think that in addition to having reservations about strip bark pine, there should be a more general reservation on pines, or any tree in a lightning prone area, or with marginal sustenance,</p>
<p>The trees are sometimes in groups, sometimes isolated. The isolated trees must be in locations where existance is marginal, otherwise others would have grown nearby.</p>
<p>Overall, I think that the selection of this type of tree, in a location where lightning strike is endemic, and where some of the sustaining factors must have been marginal for a long period of time. is a very poor choice for using tree ring growth as a proxy for temperature, aside from all the reservations already expressed. A possible proof of that would be some kind of cross correlation between trees. If they don&#8217;t correlate highly between themselves, shouldn&#8217;t they be ruled out?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112123</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#78. Graybill&#039;s agenda was to prove CO2 fertilization. HE coauthored a paper with Sherwood Idso.   It is one of the supreme ironies of the hockey stick that it depended on the same trees that were used to demonstrate CO2 fertilization. It increasingly looks like both &quot;proofs&quot; were faulty and that what they were really picking up were just strip bark mechanical anomalies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#78. Graybill&#8217;s agenda was to prove CO2 fertilization. HE coauthored a paper with Sherwood Idso.   It is one of the supreme ironies of the hockey stick that it depended on the same trees that were used to demonstrate CO2 fertilization. It increasingly looks like both &#8220;proofs&#8221; were faulty and that what they were really picking up were just strip bark mechanical anomalies.</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, so why didnt the Dendrochronologists ever marry?

Because  he was too interested in tree cores?    No..

Because the avoid reaction wood?   No

I think the real reason is that he only dated trees.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so why didnt the Dendrochronologists ever marry?</p>
<p>Because  he was too interested in tree cores?    No..</p>
<p>Because the avoid reaction wood?   No</p>
<p>I think the real reason is that he only dated trees.</p>
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		<title>By: MrPete</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/17/almagre-strip-bark/#comment-112121</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MrPete]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2214#comment-112121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Colorado Help Wanted.
Can you help with a last-second trip up Almagre to refine some of our data?
The weather tomorrow looks good. Windy (50mph gusts) but warm enough to go back up one more time. My goal: collect more detailed photos, and more accurate angles, slopes, bark coverage, etc.
Three &quot;items&quot; would be VERY helpful. Anyone in the Colorado Springs area able to help with any of these for tomorrow, Saturday October 20th?
1) Someone to go with me (my wife&#039;s booked)
2) A stand-alone GPS, the fancier the better, but I&#039;m not tooo picky. (Would be easier than using my tablet)
3) An ATV to borrow for the day. Would make the last part of the trip much easier.
Email me, webbed dot pete at gmail (etc) if you have a lead on any of the above. I&#039;ll be up early in the AM to see if I&#039;ve got any help! TIA...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colorado Help Wanted.<br />
Can you help with a last-second trip up Almagre to refine some of our data?<br />
The weather tomorrow looks good. Windy (50mph gusts) but warm enough to go back up one more time. My goal: collect more detailed photos, and more accurate angles, slopes, bark coverage, etc.<br />
Three &#8220;items&#8221; would be VERY helpful. Anyone in the Colorado Springs area able to help with any of these for tomorrow, Saturday October 20th?<br />
1) Someone to go with me (my wife&#8217;s booked)<br />
2) A stand-alone GPS, the fancier the better, but I&#8217;m not tooo picky. (Would be easier than using my tablet)<br />
3) An ATV to borrow for the day. Would make the last part of the trip much easier.<br />
Email me, webbed dot pete at gmail (etc) if you have a lead on any of the above. I&#8217;ll be up early in the AM to see if I&#8217;ve got any help! TIA&#8230;</p>
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