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	<title>Comments on: A Coarse Fraction Bias in Arabian Sea G Bulloides?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 15:03:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: richardT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113770</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On foram sizes:
Schmid et al. 2003 Size distribution of Holocene planktic foraminifer assemblages: biogeography, ecology and adaptation. Marine Micropaleontology
50, 319-338.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On foram sizes:<br />
Schmid et al. 2003 Size distribution of Holocene planktic foraminifer assemblages: biogeography, ecology and adaptation. Marine Micropaleontology<br />
50, 319-338.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The remarkable similarity in the increase in coarse fraction in the mixed layer and the increase in G Bulloides percentage in the mixed layer suggests to me that some sort of concentrating mechanism might well be working whether or not Im in a position to identify precisely what it is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually a common mechanism is very easy to hypothesize.  Suppose that the distribution of G Bulloides and G Ruber in the plus 150-micron size is coarser for G Bulloides. For example, suppose than only 10% of plus 150-micron G Ruber are plus 250-micron, while say 30% of G Bulloides are. (And it&#039;s my understanding that the hypothesis of more large G Bulloides is not an idle hypothesis as I&#039;m pretty sure that I&#039;ve read somewhere that there are more large G Bulloides than G Ruber.)

Then &lt;strong&gt;precisely&lt;/strong&gt; the same mechanism that generates the increased coarse fraction in the top 1.2 cm mixed layer would also generate the increased percentage of G Bulloides.  Given that there&#039;s a 0.9 correlation between pct G Bullolides and pct coarse fraction, the idea of a common mechanism is rather neat.

I don&#039;t know what percentage of the total coarse is made up of G Bulloides - I presume that there are other constituents in the coarse fraction besides G Bulloides and that there is an increase in other coarse components besides G Bulloides:  maybe you could give some estimates of what sort of distributions one would encounter.

It looks more and more to me like the pct G Bulloides series contains a spurious effect which then introduces a spurious regression with NH temperature in classic Team style. If so, it will be a rather nifty example as the series is a major contributor to the Moberg and Juckes composites - I think that it was the largest contributor to modern-medieval differences in Moberg.  So it would be rather fun if it proved to be another completely spurious regression.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The remarkable similarity in the increase in coarse fraction in the mixed layer and the increase in G Bulloides percentage in the mixed layer suggests to me that some sort of concentrating mechanism might well be working whether or not Im in a position to identify precisely what it is.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually a common mechanism is very easy to hypothesize.  Suppose that the distribution of G Bulloides and G Ruber in the plus 150-micron size is coarser for G Bulloides. For example, suppose than only 10% of plus 150-micron G Ruber are plus 250-micron, while say 30% of G Bulloides are. (And it&#8217;s my understanding that the hypothesis of more large G Bulloides is not an idle hypothesis as I&#8217;m pretty sure that I&#8217;ve read somewhere that there are more large G Bulloides than G Ruber.)</p>
<p>Then <strong>precisely</strong> the same mechanism that generates the increased coarse fraction in the top 1.2 cm mixed layer would also generate the increased percentage of G Bulloides.  Given that there&#8217;s a 0.9 correlation between pct G Bullolides and pct coarse fraction, the idea of a common mechanism is rather neat.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what percentage of the total coarse is made up of G Bulloides &#8211; I presume that there are other constituents in the coarse fraction besides G Bulloides and that there is an increase in other coarse components besides G Bulloides:  maybe you could give some estimates of what sort of distributions one would encounter.</p>
<p>It looks more and more to me like the pct G Bulloides series contains a spurious effect which then introduces a spurious regression with NH temperature in classic Team style. If so, it will be a rather nifty example as the series is a major contributor to the Moberg and Juckes composites &#8211; I think that it was the largest contributor to modern-medieval differences in Moberg.  So it would be rather fun if it proved to be another completely spurious regression.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#41. That&#039;s just the starting guess working itself out of the simulation. Try re-doing the simulation using as a starting point, the values from the 500th iteration. I just did this. The effect that you&#039;re worrying about doesn&#039;t occur then. This sort of effect is not unusual when you make a starting guess without knowing the steady state value. That&#039;s why I used the 500th simulation.   Not a problem. (Not to say that there aren&#039;t other issues, this is rough and ready, but that&#039;s not one of them.)

PS. You can start with the steady state by simply doing 1000 iterations and then chopping off the first half. I&#039;ve edited the script a little to do this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#41. That&#8217;s just the starting guess working itself out of the simulation. Try re-doing the simulation using as a starting point, the values from the 500th iteration. I just did this. The effect that you&#8217;re worrying about doesn&#8217;t occur then. This sort of effect is not unusual when you make a starting guess without knowing the steady state value. That&#8217;s why I used the 500th simulation.   Not a problem. (Not to say that there aren&#8217;t other issues, this is rough and ready, but that&#8217;s not one of them.)</p>
<p>PS. You can start with the steady state by simply doing 1000 iterations and then chopping off the first half. I&#8217;ve edited the script a little to do this.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#39.  I doubt that this particular mechanism will make any difference to radiocarbon date. Under the mechanism shown here, the coarse fraction only percolates upward a few years, but that&#039;s sufficient to create an inventory in the mixed layer.

HAving said that, this particular mechanism would not result in huge differences in age either - for that to happen, some different mechanism would have to exist. To accomplish a substantial modification of coarse fraction age, I&#039;d have to think up different sorts of parameters - and I&#039;ve not explored this.

The &quot;remarkable similarity&quot; in the increase in coarse fraction in the mixed layer and the increase in G Bulloides percentage in the mixed layer suggests to me that some sort of concentrating mechanism might well be working whether or not I&#039;m in a position to identify precisely what it is.  As I understand it, the only other somewhat comparable data set is the Black Cariaco series, which has a completely different look to it in the top portion.

Without some replication, it seems incredibly amateur to incorporate such trial balloons into multiproxy reconstructions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#39.  I doubt that this particular mechanism will make any difference to radiocarbon date. Under the mechanism shown here, the coarse fraction only percolates upward a few years, but that&#8217;s sufficient to create an inventory in the mixed layer.</p>
<p>HAving said that, this particular mechanism would not result in huge differences in age either &#8211; for that to happen, some different mechanism would have to exist. To accomplish a substantial modification of coarse fraction age, I&#8217;d have to think up different sorts of parameters &#8211; and I&#8217;ve not explored this.</p>
<p>The &#8220;remarkable similarity&#8221; in the increase in coarse fraction in the mixed layer and the increase in G Bulloides percentage in the mixed layer suggests to me that some sort of concentrating mechanism might well be working whether or not I&#8217;m in a position to identify precisely what it is.  As I understand it, the only other somewhat comparable data set is the Black Cariaco series, which has a completely different look to it in the top portion.</p>
<p>Without some replication, it seems incredibly amateur to incorporate such trial balloons into multiproxy reconstructions.</p>
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		<title>By: richardT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not convinced your code is doing quite what you think it is. It is certainly not working like I expected it to!

Run your code, then make this figure.
x11();par(mfrow=c(3,3))
for(i in c(1,5,10,20,50,100,150,200,500)){
  plot(X[[i]][,2], main=i)
}

Does this make sense to you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not convinced your code is doing quite what you think it is. It is certainly not working like I expected it to!</p>
<p>Run your code, then make this figure.<br />
x11();par(mfrow=c(3,3))<br />
for(i in c(1,5,10,20,50,100,150,200,500)){<br />
  plot(X[[i]][,2], main=i)<br />
}</p>
<p>Does this make sense to you?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a short script for the simulation:
http://data.climateaudit.org/scripts/ocean/coarse.simulation.txt

It&#039;s a very simple simulation. I&#039;m not saying that merely modeling the shape of a curve &lt;strong&gt;proves &lt;/strong&gt; that the model is correct.

BTW are you aware of other cores in the area which show the same build-up of coarse fraction or is this information only available for these 2 cores?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a short script for the simulation:<br />
<a href="http://data.climateaudit.org/scripts/ocean/coarse.simulation.txt" rel="nofollow">http://data.climateaudit.org/scripts/ocean/coarse.simulation.txt</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a very simple simulation. I&#8217;m not saying that merely modeling the shape of a curve <strong>proves </strong> that the model is correct.</p>
<p>BTW are you aware of other cores in the area which show the same build-up of coarse fraction or is this information only available for these 2 cores?</p>
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		<title>By: richardT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#38
Please can you post the code for your simulation - or better still modify if to calculate the mean age of the coarse fraction in each 1mm slice. I propose to demonstrate that your simulation is inconsistent with the radiocarbon dates, and hence that the mechanism you propose is inadequate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#38<br />
Please can you post the code for your simulation &#8211; or better still modify if to calculate the mean age of the coarse fraction in each 1mm slice. I propose to demonstrate that your simulation is inconsistent with the radiocarbon dates, and hence that the mechanism you propose is inadequate.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard T, I was able to simulate the following profile for coarse fraction with a simple simulation of a bioturbation mechanism of a steady state deposition of 0.9 fines and 0.1 coarse. I could play with the parameters a little more and get an even closer match to the observed curve.  This was my first run with the mechanism described below (although I experimented with a couple of other mechanisms).

&lt;a href=&#039;http://www.climateaudit.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/coarse29.gif&#039; title=&#039;coarse29.gif&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

The premises of the simulation were as follows:
1) all bioturbation activity originated at the surface layer in the current year, the depth of secretion had a negative exponential shape and all downward secretion were fines;
2) upward percolation balanced the bioturbation and all upward percolation was in coarse. (If upward percolation is partly fines, then I&#039;m pretty sure that somewhat different parameters could be found to yield any shape achievable with the method here.)
3) averages were taken over 10 year intervals and plotted.

The negative exponential shape for bioturbation secretion is attested in Wheatcroft; the coarse fraction percolation in McCave;  Thomson et al etc. Bioturbation is attested in the Oman OMZ, despite arm-waving by Overpeck&#039;s associates.

This doesn&#039;t &lt;strong&gt;prove&lt;/strong&gt; that the coarse fraction profile was generated by bioturbation.  However the coarse fraction profile really has an alarmingly simple shape and the fact that you can generate that shape with a simple implementation of a bioturbation mechanism should really give people some pause.

You observe that this doesn&#039;t prove that the G Bulloides percentage are affected by this phenomenon. However, the correlation between G Bulloides percentage and coarse fraction percentage is 0.91 - a very high percentage in paleoclimate; the closing portion of the G Bulloides profile is also alarmingly untextured and this suggests to me that some nonclimatic mechanism may be involved - perhaps allied to the concentration occurring in the coarse fraction or perhaps some independent mechanism operating in a similar way.

What should concern general readers aside from this is the fact that the percentage G Bulloides result of Overpeck and associates is essentially a one-off result, which has nonetheless been inhaled into multiproxy studies (Moberg, Juckes) as though high confidence could be placed in the original study. What do we really know about G Bulloides percentages?  Is there a valid relationship to temperature?  The only study containing detailed information on G Bulloides over the past millennium is by Black at Cariaco and I&#039;ll look at that in the next few days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard T, I was able to simulate the following profile for coarse fraction with a simple simulation of a bioturbation mechanism of a steady state deposition of 0.9 fines and 0.1 coarse. I could play with the parameters a little more and get an even closer match to the observed curve.  This was my first run with the mechanism described below (although I experimented with a couple of other mechanisms).</p>
<p><a href='http://www.climateaudit.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/coarse29.gif' title='coarse29.gif' rel="nofollow"></a></p>
<p>The premises of the simulation were as follows:<br />
1) all bioturbation activity originated at the surface layer in the current year, the depth of secretion had a negative exponential shape and all downward secretion were fines;<br />
2) upward percolation balanced the bioturbation and all upward percolation was in coarse. (If upward percolation is partly fines, then I&#8217;m pretty sure that somewhat different parameters could be found to yield any shape achievable with the method here.)<br />
3) averages were taken over 10 year intervals and plotted.</p>
<p>The negative exponential shape for bioturbation secretion is attested in Wheatcroft; the coarse fraction percolation in McCave;  Thomson et al etc. Bioturbation is attested in the Oman OMZ, despite arm-waving by Overpeck&#8217;s associates.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t <strong>prove</strong> that the coarse fraction profile was generated by bioturbation.  However the coarse fraction profile really has an alarmingly simple shape and the fact that you can generate that shape with a simple implementation of a bioturbation mechanism should really give people some pause.</p>
<p>You observe that this doesn&#8217;t prove that the G Bulloides percentage are affected by this phenomenon. However, the correlation between G Bulloides percentage and coarse fraction percentage is 0.91 &#8211; a very high percentage in paleoclimate; the closing portion of the G Bulloides profile is also alarmingly untextured and this suggests to me that some nonclimatic mechanism may be involved &#8211; perhaps allied to the concentration occurring in the coarse fraction or perhaps some independent mechanism operating in a similar way.</p>
<p>What should concern general readers aside from this is the fact that the percentage G Bulloides result of Overpeck and associates is essentially a one-off result, which has nonetheless been inhaled into multiproxy studies (Moberg, Juckes) as though high confidence could be placed in the original study. What do we really know about G Bulloides percentages?  Is there a valid relationship to temperature?  The only study containing detailed information on G Bulloides over the past millennium is by Black at Cariaco and I&#8217;ll look at that in the next few days.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113762</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re #17 B Culver

Yes, we need the input of a good carbonate geochemist. I was only a generalist, so I offer a general comment that I have not researched - yet. Please tell me if I should or if the answer is known.

In a column where there is simultaneous dissolution of old carbonate material and formation of new material, in strata where the conditions permit each, is there is a possibility of isotope homogenisation? That is, can the new shell isotope ratios be perturbed because some of their building block material comes from older, dissolving shells with different isotope ratios? The answer might well be that the atmosphere supplies adequate new carbon and oxygen, with whatever isotope signals are in the air at the time, but then one has to account for the calcium as well. Is it mobile up the column or does it come from airborne dust or from lateral transport? I simply don&#039;t know the relative likelihood of these possible contributions.

I have similar conceptual problems with corals, as we have such large reefs here. We have coral of many ages decaying and producing CO2 (I presume) and thus at least some mixing of isotopes of both oxygen and carbon. How much, I do not know.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #17 B Culver</p>
<p>Yes, we need the input of a good carbonate geochemist. I was only a generalist, so I offer a general comment that I have not researched &#8211; yet. Please tell me if I should or if the answer is known.</p>
<p>In a column where there is simultaneous dissolution of old carbonate material and formation of new material, in strata where the conditions permit each, is there is a possibility of isotope homogenisation? That is, can the new shell isotope ratios be perturbed because some of their building block material comes from older, dissolving shells with different isotope ratios? The answer might well be that the atmosphere supplies adequate new carbon and oxygen, with whatever isotope signals are in the air at the time, but then one has to account for the calcium as well. Is it mobile up the column or does it come from airborne dust or from lateral transport? I simply don&#8217;t know the relative likelihood of these possible contributions.</p>
<p>I have similar conceptual problems with corals, as we have such large reefs here. We have coral of many ages decaying and producing CO2 (I presume) and thus at least some mixing of isotopes of both oxygen and carbon. How much, I do not know.</p>
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		<title>By: DocMartyn</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/10/28/a-coarse-fraction-bias-in-g-bulloides/#comment-113761</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DocMartyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2291#comment-113761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[why do the math? We know that July 16, 1945 marks the day that Strontium 90 into shells/bones. This gives you an absolute date, just look at the strontium 90, its sticks out like a sore thumb.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why do the math? We know that July 16, 1945 marks the day that Strontium 90 into shells/bones. This gives you an absolute date, just look at the strontium 90, its sticks out like a sore thumb.</p>
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