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	<title>Comments on: 2007 Weblog Poll Closes Nov 8</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 08:07:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Kingston</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kingston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 11:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well I found it the most long post with a heated debate. After reading your whole post and comment now I think to again commence this hot discussion but to be frank very confused with where to start, still its very informative and helpful to me.
Thanks
Kingston]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I found it the most long post with a heated debate. After reading your whole post and comment now I think to again commence this hot discussion but to be frank very confused with where to start, still its very informative and helpful to me.<br />
Thanks<br />
Kingston</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115921</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Enjoyed it!
Good review on the whole poll ordeal:
http://www.inoculatedmind.com/2007/11/12/monday-madness-stop-suppressing-the-vote/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed it!<br />
Good review on the whole poll ordeal:<br />
<a href="http://www.inoculatedmind.com/2007/11/12/monday-madness-stop-suppressing-the-vote/" rel="nofollow">http://www.inoculatedmind.com/2007/11/12/monday-madness-stop-suppressing-the-vote/</a></p>
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		<title>By: lucia</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lucia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Phillip_B:  Yep. &lt;i&gt;And&lt;/i&gt; a good voting system must do this without discouraging voting.

Web contests are often motivated by the publicity they get for the group that runs the contents, and the advertising sold during the contest. So, aside from fairness issues, those groups rarely want to discourage voting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Phillip_B:  Yep. <i>And</i> a good voting system must do this without discouraging voting.</p>
<p>Web contests are often motivated by the publicity they get for the group that runs the contents, and the advertising sold during the contest. So, aside from fairness issues, those groups rarely want to discourage voting.</p>
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		<title>By: Gunnar</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gunnar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#648, Philip_B, no problem, and thanks for responding. I could have been wrong.  Now, we both know for sure, and I know more about your intellectual honesty.

#649, MrPete, great points all.  A capcha in the process might help, but there is always a way around everything, but there is a practical limit to what someone will do to skew a meaningless web poll.

#650 &gt;&gt; Our tendency in almost all situations is to minimize our sense of the uncertainty levels

So true, and to maximize our sense of efficacy.  The end result is: we&#039;re certain that disaster is coming, and we know we did it.  Human conceit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#648, Philip_B, no problem, and thanks for responding. I could have been wrong.  Now, we both know for sure, and I know more about your intellectual honesty.</p>
<p>#649, MrPete, great points all.  A capcha in the process might help, but there is always a way around everything, but there is a practical limit to what someone will do to skew a meaningless web poll.</p>
<p>#650 &gt;&gt; Our tendency in almost all situations is to minimize our sense of the uncertainty levels</p>
<p>So true, and to maximize our sense of efficacy.  The end result is: we&#8217;re certain that disaster is coming, and we know we did it.  Human conceit.</p>
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		<title>By: MrPete</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115918</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MrPete]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is more apropos than one might think. I don&#039;t want to get into a huge OT argument, but think about parallels between the following challenges:

* Distinguish human vs automated voting responses.
* Distinguish natural vs anthropogenic warming.
* Distinguish natural vs intelligenic evolution.
* Distinguish natural vs anthropogenic equipment failure.
* Distinguish natural vs medicated healing.

Our tendency in almost all situations is to minimize our sense of the uncertainty levels -- if we calculate them at all. I.e., we think we know what&#039;s going on. But that doesn&#039;t mean we actually do. People tend to be predisposed to think we know what&#039;s going on... whether we really do or not. The fact that we&#039;re VERY bad at predicting the future ought to bring some humility...yet too often it does not. (Overall, could this explain why most older scientists tend to be a less vociferous lot--they&#039;ve learned caution over the years?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is more apropos than one might think. I don&#8217;t want to get into a huge OT argument, but think about parallels between the following challenges:</p>
<p>* Distinguish human vs automated voting responses.<br />
* Distinguish natural vs anthropogenic warming.<br />
* Distinguish natural vs intelligenic evolution.<br />
* Distinguish natural vs anthropogenic equipment failure.<br />
* Distinguish natural vs medicated healing.</p>
<p>Our tendency in almost all situations is to minimize our sense of the uncertainty levels &#8212; if we calculate them at all. I.e., we think we know what&#8217;s going on. But that doesn&#8217;t mean we actually do. People tend to be predisposed to think we know what&#8217;s going on&#8230; whether we really do or not. The fact that we&#8217;re VERY bad at predicting the future ought to bring some humility&#8230;yet too often it does not. (Overall, could this explain why most older scientists tend to be a less vociferous lot&#8211;they&#8217;ve learned caution over the years?)</p>
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		<title>By: MrPete</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MrPete]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why is email verification useless for prevention of duplicate voting?

Because anyone with control over an email server can process an essentially infinite number of email addresses. Think of it qas reverse phishing.

A non-techie explanation: a common form of spammer attack is the &quot;dictionary&quot; attack: attempt to send emails to DictionaryWord@somwhere.com, where DictionaryName is every word in a dictionary.

I&#039;ve seen blunt attacks: one per second from the same source, in alphabetical order. I&#039;ve seen sophisticated versions: randomized, with random timing, from a dozen sources... but over time it becomes obvious [if you are looking] that the dozen sources are all pulling from a single dictionary.

Similar tools can be used to generate a million &quot;email validated&quot; votes -- (automated, and random reply time) response to each and every verification email.

If a computer can be used to emulate &lt;a href=&quot;http://nlp-addiction.com/eliza/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ELIZA&lt;/a&gt; (sorry for the four decade old example!), this is a nit.

A good voting system must distinguish between votes from 1,000 people at ibm.com and 1,000 &quot;people&quot; at FakeBigCompany.com, both of which are behind good firewalls -- and that&#039;s a tough order.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is email verification useless for prevention of duplicate voting?</p>
<p>Because anyone with control over an email server can process an essentially infinite number of email addresses. Think of it qas reverse phishing.</p>
<p>A non-techie explanation: a common form of spammer attack is the &#8220;dictionary&#8221; attack: attempt to send emails to <a href="mailto:DictionaryWord@somwhere.com">DictionaryWord@somwhere.com</a>, where DictionaryName is every word in a dictionary.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen blunt attacks: one per second from the same source, in alphabetical order. I&#8217;ve seen sophisticated versions: randomized, with random timing, from a dozen sources&#8230; but over time it becomes obvious [if you are looking] that the dozen sources are all pulling from a single dictionary.</p>
<p>Similar tools can be used to generate a million &#8220;email validated&#8221; votes &#8212; (automated, and random reply time) response to each and every verification email.</p>
<p>If a computer can be used to emulate <a href="http://nlp-addiction.com/eliza/" rel="nofollow">ELIZA</a> (sorry for the four decade old example!), this is a nit.</p>
<p>A good voting system must distinguish between votes from 1,000 people at ibm.com and 1,000 &#8220;people&#8221; at FakeBigCompany.com, both of which are behind good firewalls &#8212; and that&#8217;s a tough order.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip_B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip_B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gunnar, got to eat some humble pie here. You are right and you cant have a correlated subquery in an insert statement. I remember the reason. SQL statements are atomic and insert into the same table you are selecting from can&#039;t be evaluated atomically because the table changes during the insert.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gunnar, got to eat some humble pie here. You are right and you cant have a correlated subquery in an insert statement. I remember the reason. SQL statements are atomic and insert into the same table you are selecting from can&#8217;t be evaluated atomically because the table changes during the insert.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip_B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115915</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip_B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gunnar, the link below from Oracle explains correlated subqueries with examples.

http://download-east.oracle.com/docs/cd/B14117_01/server.101/b10759/queries007.htm

And get yourself a copy of Date&#039;s book. It really is a gem of clarity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gunnar, the link below from Oracle explains correlated subqueries with examples.</p>
<p><a href="http://download-east.oracle.com/docs/cd/B14117_01/server.101/b10759/queries007.htm" rel="nofollow">http://download-east.oracle.com/docs/cd/B14117_01/server.101/b10759/queries007.htm</a></p>
<p>And get yourself a copy of Date&#8217;s book. It really is a gem of clarity.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Larry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know I was fors(a)kin by the mohel...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I was fors(a)kin by the mohel&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/06/2007-weblog-poll-closes-nov-8/#comment-115913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2323#comment-115913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the Mohel took more than a snip from Gunnar and Flub blinal.

oar knot]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Mohel took more than a snip from Gunnar and Flub blinal.</p>
<p>oar knot</p>
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