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	<title>Comments on: The Sheep Mountain Update</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: D. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[58 Peter D. Tillman says:
November 15th, 2007 at 1:24 pm


&lt;blockquote&gt;FWIW, Ill send her a polite email with the address of this thread, as I have connections to both UA and W&amp;M.

Cheers  Pete Tillman&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ms. Ababneh received Steve McIntyre&#039;s original e-mail/s, knows about Climate Audit and the thread/s concerning her thesis, and indicated she does not want to be contacted about it. Sorry, but she has made it very clear that she is not receptive to inquiries from the CA community about her thesis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>58 Peter D. Tillman says:<br />
November 15th, 2007 at 1:24 pm</p>
<blockquote><p>FWIW, Ill send her a polite email with the address of this thread, as I have connections to both UA and W&amp;M.</p>
<p>Cheers  Pete Tillman</p></blockquote>
<p>Ms. Ababneh received Steve McIntyre&#8217;s original e-mail/s, knows about Climate Audit and the thread/s concerning her thesis, and indicated she does not want to be contacted about it. Sorry, but she has made it very clear that she is not receptive to inquiries from the CA community about her thesis.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117009</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[45 Tim Ball says:
November 15th, 2007 at 10:42 am

Yes, to put it mildly, the waters of the Colorado River have been grossly overallocated because the original streamflow estimates failed to recognize that the Colorado River was experiencing its largest streamflows in centuries at the time it was initially measured. The Colorado River Compact of 1922 and some later treaties allocated 16.5 MAF or 17.5 MAF (million acre feet) of water between the upper river basin and the lower river basin, depending upon how the treaties are interpreted. Each river basin, upper and lower was to receive half of the 16.5 MAF, and the other 1 MAF was in dispute. These allocations were made based upon the 20 year average of 16.4 MAF of streamflow at Lee&#039;s Ferry, Arizona in 1922. Subsequent measurements have averaged around 15.1 MAF, which meant the Compact of 1922 had seriously overallocated the water when compared to subsequent streamflow experience.

Later dendrochronological studies and reconstructions have reported much lower average streamflows ranging from as little as 13.0 MAF to as high as 14.7 MAF over time periods of 500 years to more than 1,200 years. These reports also describe low streamflows during the late 16th Century mega-drought resulting in as little as 9.1 to 12.9 MAF of water. To say the least, the initial failure to recognize the exceptional streamflows existing at the beginning of the 20th Century resulted in an entirely unrealistic and unreasonable treaty allocation of the water.

One source for this information is from the Website for the Colorado River Streamflow: A Paleo Perspective; Western Water Assessment, NOAA. This source describes the advent of dendrochronology, and it describes a number of related publications.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>45 Tim Ball says:<br />
November 15th, 2007 at 10:42 am</p>
<p>Yes, to put it mildly, the waters of the Colorado River have been grossly overallocated because the original streamflow estimates failed to recognize that the Colorado River was experiencing its largest streamflows in centuries at the time it was initially measured. The Colorado River Compact of 1922 and some later treaties allocated 16.5 MAF or 17.5 MAF (million acre feet) of water between the upper river basin and the lower river basin, depending upon how the treaties are interpreted. Each river basin, upper and lower was to receive half of the 16.5 MAF, and the other 1 MAF was in dispute. These allocations were made based upon the 20 year average of 16.4 MAF of streamflow at Lee&#8217;s Ferry, Arizona in 1922. Subsequent measurements have averaged around 15.1 MAF, which meant the Compact of 1922 had seriously overallocated the water when compared to subsequent streamflow experience.</p>
<p>Later dendrochronological studies and reconstructions have reported much lower average streamflows ranging from as little as 13.0 MAF to as high as 14.7 MAF over time periods of 500 years to more than 1,200 years. These reports also describe low streamflows during the late 16th Century mega-drought resulting in as little as 9.1 to 12.9 MAF of water. To say the least, the initial failure to recognize the exceptional streamflows existing at the beginning of the 20th Century resulted in an entirely unrealistic and unreasonable treaty allocation of the water.</p>
<p>One source for this information is from the Website for the Colorado River Streamflow: A Paleo Perspective; Western Water Assessment, NOAA. This source describes the advent of dendrochronology, and it describes a number of related publications.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PaulM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[22 49 74: Yes, Steve, you should write this up, concisely as a short note focusing on the facts without any criticism of any individuals. Send it to a modest journal (not Nature! - maybe your favourite CPD?) and post it on a preprint archive. This would really not be much effort for you after the work you have already done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>22 49 74: Yes, Steve, you should write this up, concisely as a short note focusing on the facts without any criticism of any individuals. Send it to a modest journal (not Nature! &#8211; maybe your favourite CPD?) and post it on a preprint archive. This would really not be much effort for you after the work you have already done.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt Bennett</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: #78

Thank you for the honest reply.

I&#039;ll deal with doomsday scenarios separately. I&#039;&#039;m just here for the science.

I will say that the belief that a piece of evidence somehow supports something that it does not, simply so one can sleep better, sounds a bit like hysteria.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #78</p>
<p>Thank you for the honest reply.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll deal with doomsday scenarios separately. I&#8221;m just here for the science.</p>
<p>I will say that the belief that a piece of evidence somehow supports something that it does not, simply so one can sleep better, sounds a bit like hysteria.</p>
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		<title>By: pk</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117006</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[johnlichtenstein, while it&#039;s not apples to apples Ababneh did find that the Sheep Mountain whole barks provided the best correlation (although not a strong correlation) of the four with local precipitation and temperature (Appendix II).  So in the end, they really are the trees that should be compared with the Graybill series since it was used as a temperature proxy by Mann.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>johnlichtenstein, while it&#8217;s not apples to apples Ababneh did find that the Sheep Mountain whole barks provided the best correlation (although not a strong correlation) of the four with local precipitation and temperature (Appendix II).  So in the end, they really are the trees that should be compared with the Graybill series since it was used as a temperature proxy by Mann.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, appropriateness of choice.   A key phrase.
===========================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, appropriateness of choice.   A key phrase.<br />
===========================</p>
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		<title>By: johnlichtenstein</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnlichtenstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve M and Bender I think that pk is right in urging caution in comparing any mixed sample to a Graybill (heavily splitbark) sample. The apples to apples comparisons are between the Ababneh sb and the Ababneh nsb or between the Ababneh sb and the Graybill data. The blended Ababneh data would be expected to have smaller second or third moments than Graybill or Ababneh sb data. I don&#039;t understand how any balanced series can be considered an update to the Greabill supervariance series.

 Maybe a balanced series is a more appropriate choice for a reconstruction than a supervariance series, but that&#039;s a different question.

Sorry if the story is equally clear in the A. sb to Graybill comparisons. Those are not presented here and I haven&#039;t built those. But the top article is apples to oranges. There is something really interesting going on, but nothing that can be shown to be wrong n one step.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve M and Bender I think that pk is right in urging caution in comparing any mixed sample to a Graybill (heavily splitbark) sample. The apples to apples comparisons are between the Ababneh sb and the Ababneh nsb or between the Ababneh sb and the Graybill data. The blended Ababneh data would be expected to have smaller second or third moments than Graybill or Ababneh sb data. I don&#8217;t understand how any balanced series can be considered an update to the Greabill supervariance series.</p>
<p> Maybe a balanced series is a more appropriate choice for a reconstruction than a supervariance series, but that&#8217;s a different question.</p>
<p>Sorry if the story is equally clear in the A. sb to Graybill comparisons. Those are not presented here and I haven&#8217;t built those. But the top article is apples to oranges. There is something really interesting going on, but nothing that can be shown to be wrong n one step.</p>
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		<title>By: theduke</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[theduke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 05:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Walt Bennett  says:
November 15th, 2007 at 3:03 pm



&lt;blockquote&gt;Why are some people so desperate for each new finding to be the death knell for this or that AGW theory?&lt;/blockquote&gt;



Because too many manifestations of the AGW theory predict a &quot;death knell&quot; for civilization if their demands for radical societal change are not met.

Why shouldn&#039;t skeptics celebrate if the science that  predicts imminent catastrophe caused by everyday human activity is found wanting?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt Bennett  says:<br />
November 15th, 2007 at 3:03 pm</p>
<blockquote><p>Why are some people so desperate for each new finding to be the death knell for this or that AGW theory?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because too many manifestations of the AGW theory predict a &#8220;death knell&#8221; for civilization if their demands for radical societal change are not met.</p>
<p>Why shouldn&#8217;t skeptics celebrate if the science that  predicts imminent catastrophe caused by everyday human activity is found wanting?</p>
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		<title>By: sonicfrog</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117002</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sonicfrog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;How about a script?
For the anti - AIT movie I am planning featuring Fred Thompson.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sorry - no can do. The WGA and writers are on strike!!!

PS. Almost typed in &quot;AGW&quot; out of habit :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How about a script?<br />
For the anti &#8211; AIT movie I am planning featuring Fred Thompson.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry &#8211; no can do. The WGA and writers are on strike!!!</p>
<p>PS. Almost typed in &#8220;AGW&#8221; out of habit <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Pat Keating</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/14/the-sheep-mountain-update/#comment-117001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat Keating]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2371#comment-117001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[73
I thought the Hokey sticks were in Blacksburg, VA, not State College, PA.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>73<br />
I thought the Hokey sticks were in Blacksburg, VA, not State College, PA.</p>
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