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	<title>Comments on: The Loehle Network plus Moberg Trees</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 22:53:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phil.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joel #31
&quot;Steve M or anybody: what causes the Moberg-style graph in this post to have a huge uptick at the end and Loehle 2007 to have a downtick? Loehle 2007 seems to better represent the 1970s cooling, though the warm 1930s dont seem to make an appearance.&quot;

The way he treats the endpoint of his dataset; the mean of his proxies peaks in 1966 and drops rapidly to the end in 1980 (see below):


1964  	0.100322801
1965 	0.142321563
1966	        0.170178093
1967	        0.157816547
1968	        0.143066997
1969	        0.130265684
1970   	0.138856536
1971 	0.151107518
1972 	0.12857254
1973 	0.113799023
1974	        0.089954119
1975  	0.05341691
1976	        0.015333634
1977	        0.003300072
1978  	0.010647498
1979 	-0.008464229
1980 	-0.009645872

Hadcrut3 shows an increase of ~0.2ºC over the same timeframe (and ~0.6ºC to the present day).

The 30&#039;s appear not to be very warm in comparison:

1932 	-0.012193721
1933 	-0.011362548
1934 	-0.011035132
1935	          0.035464209
1936	          0.021091592
1937	          0.01574397
1938        	0.021998722
1939	        0.017378256
1940  	0.009740916

Based on that data I would say that Loehle represents the period 1930-1980 extremely poorly!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel #31<br />
&#8220;Steve M or anybody: what causes the Moberg-style graph in this post to have a huge uptick at the end and Loehle 2007 to have a downtick? Loehle 2007 seems to better represent the 1970s cooling, though the warm 1930s dont seem to make an appearance.&#8221;</p>
<p>The way he treats the endpoint of his dataset; the mean of his proxies peaks in 1966 and drops rapidly to the end in 1980 (see below):</p>
<p>1964  	0.100322801<br />
1965 	0.142321563<br />
1966	        0.170178093<br />
1967	        0.157816547<br />
1968	        0.143066997<br />
1969	        0.130265684<br />
1970   	0.138856536<br />
1971 	0.151107518<br />
1972 	0.12857254<br />
1973 	0.113799023<br />
1974	        0.089954119<br />
1975  	0.05341691<br />
1976	        0.015333634<br />
1977	        0.003300072<br />
1978  	0.010647498<br />
1979 	-0.008464229<br />
1980 	-0.009645872</p>
<p>Hadcrut3 shows an increase of ~0.2ºC over the same timeframe (and ~0.6ºC to the present day).</p>
<p>The 30&#8242;s appear not to be very warm in comparison:</p>
<p>1932 	-0.012193721<br />
1933 	-0.011362548<br />
1934 	-0.011035132<br />
1935	          0.035464209<br />
1936	          0.021091592<br />
1937	          0.01574397<br />
1938        	0.021998722<br />
1939	        0.017378256<br />
1940  	0.009740916</p>
<p>Based on that data I would say that Loehle represents the period 1930-1980 extremely poorly!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: olram</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119315</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[olram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#31: The x-axes in the plots in the  Loehle Proxies #2 thread have greater resolution.. the warm 30&#039;s can be seen]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#31: The x-axes in the plots in the  Loehle Proxies #2 thread have greater resolution.. the warm 30&#8242;s can be seen</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Joel McDade</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119314</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel McDade]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#29: Jason L, how dare you post that &quot;cartoon.&quot;  It was just a &quot;schematic&quot; of popular opinion in the olden days and not based on any real proxies that were actually published or anything. :)

Steve M or anybody:  what causes the Moberg-style graph in this post to have a huge uptick at the end and Loehle 2007 to have a downtick?  Loehle 2007 seems to better represent the 1970s cooling, though the warm 1930s don&#039;t seem to make an appearance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#29: Jason L, how dare you post that &#8220;cartoon.&#8221;  It was just a &#8220;schematic&#8221; of popular opinion in the olden days and not based on any real proxies that were actually published or anything. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Steve M or anybody:  what causes the Moberg-style graph in this post to have a huge uptick at the end and Loehle 2007 to have a downtick?  Loehle 2007 seems to better represent the 1970s cooling, though the warm 1930s don&#8217;t seem to make an appearance.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Koss</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Koss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike B.

Might I suggest the reason for you getting a red X?

Network filtering software is the likely culprit. Sites that are mainly for images are likely being blocked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike B.</p>
<p>Might I suggest the reason for you getting a red X?</p>
<p>Network filtering software is the likely culprit. Sites that are mainly for images are likely being blocked.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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		<title>By: Jason L</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119312</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119312</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that the similarity to the IPCC&#039;s 1990 figure below is striking.  Some of the smaller peaks and valleys seem match as well. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the similarity to the IPCC&#8217;s 1990 figure below is striking.  Some of the smaller peaks and valleys seem match as well. </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: PHE</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PHE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re 26 (Peter D. Tillman). This point keeps coming up. Just make sure you include the no. AND the name. Then if the no. slips, we can still work out who you&#039;re having a go at. As for no. 28 (PHE), you don&#039;t know what you&#039;re saying - just talking in circles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 26 (Peter D. Tillman). This point keeps coming up. Just make sure you include the no. AND the name. Then if the no. slips, we can still work out who you&#8217;re having a go at. As for no. 28 (PHE), you don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re saying &#8211; just talking in circles.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mike B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Upload yur stuff. Post. Easier than statistics. or dendroendrochronology&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So says you.:)  I kept getting a thing with a little red x in it.  I&#039;ll try again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Upload yur stuff. Post. Easier than statistics. or dendroendrochronology</p></blockquote>
<p>So says you.:)  I kept getting a thing with a little red x in it.  I&#8217;ll try again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter D. Tillman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119309</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter D. Tillman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[bender  says in #12


&lt;blockquote&gt; Whoops, ignore #13...&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Steve, not to nag, but it would make the blog more intelligible for your readers if you preserved the original post numbers whe you moderate...
&lt;strong&gt;
Steve:&lt;/strong&gt; I&#039;m sorry about that, but the mechanics of snipping and leaving is sufficiently more time-consuming than deleting and I&#039;m already swamped that I&#039;m going to do the quickest thing on many occasions. Sorry about that.  If you suggest to Wordpress that they add a Clear button beside their Delete button, I&#039;d use it and preserve the order.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bender  says in #12</p>
<blockquote><p> Whoops, ignore #13&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Steve, not to nag, but it would make the blog more intelligible for your readers if you preserved the original post numbers whe you moderate&#8230;<br />
<strong><br />
Steve:</strong> I&#8217;m sorry about that, but the mechanics of snipping and leaving is sufficiently more time-consuming than deleting and I&#8217;m already swamped that I&#8217;m going to do the quickest thing on many occasions. Sorry about that.  If you suggest to WordPress that they add a Clear button beside their Delete button, I&#8217;d use it and preserve the order.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;#17 Exactly why JEG said that the proxies should always be weighted according to the amount of instrumental variation they explain. If Ababneh bcp explains zero, its weight in the recon would be zero. If its 0.1, its weighting would be 0.1. Better proxies get more weight because theyre more credible.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The question is why are measurements of xyz a proxy for temperature--pick your favorite xyz.  Your statement does not directly address the importance of distinguishing local variance from global variance.

A &quot;teleconnection&quot; to global variance requires intermediate physical processes which draw into question the linearity assumptions of the technique.  Conversely, a correlation with local variance is meaningful so much as your knowledge of the local temperature is accurate.

Loehle claims no specialized knowledge of whether timeseries xyz is a proxy for temperature.  He draws from peer-reviewed studies where others have claimed such specialized knowledge to identify and to calibrate the timeseries.

Consequently the variance-weighting approach JEG mentions has no direct meaning within the logic of Loehle&#039;s approach which takes the calibrated timeseries as an a priori given.  Thus, JEG&#039;s suggestion is a gross misunderstanding both of what is taking place in the Loehle approach and in what is taking place in the MBH approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>#17 Exactly why JEG said that the proxies should always be weighted according to the amount of instrumental variation they explain. If Ababneh bcp explains zero, its weight in the recon would be zero. If its 0.1, its weighting would be 0.1. Better proxies get more weight because theyre more credible.</p></blockquote>
<p>The question is why are measurements of xyz a proxy for temperature&#8211;pick your favorite xyz.  Your statement does not directly address the importance of distinguishing local variance from global variance.</p>
<p>A &#8220;teleconnection&#8221; to global variance requires intermediate physical processes which draw into question the linearity assumptions of the technique.  Conversely, a correlation with local variance is meaningful so much as your knowledge of the local temperature is accurate.</p>
<p>Loehle claims no specialized knowledge of whether timeseries xyz is a proxy for temperature.  He draws from peer-reviewed studies where others have claimed such specialized knowledge to identify and to calibrate the timeseries.</p>
<p>Consequently the variance-weighting approach JEG mentions has no direct meaning within the logic of Loehle&#8217;s approach which takes the calibrated timeseries as an a priori given.  Thus, JEG&#8217;s suggestion is a gross misunderstanding both of what is taking place in the Loehle approach and in what is taking place in the MBH approach.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Drinking the IPCC bath water : Jay Currie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/20/the-loehle-network-plus-moberg-trees/#comment-119307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drinking the IPCC bath water : Jay Currie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2403#comment-119307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] While the Arctic ice cover may be shrinking, the Antarctic cover is rapidly increasing. It is becoming apparent that the Medieval Warm Period was considerably warmer than the temperatures we are currently experiencing, even the IPCC has abandoned the Mannian [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] While the Arctic ice cover may be shrinking, the Antarctic cover is rapidly increasing. It is becoming apparent that the Medieval Warm Period was considerably warmer than the temperatures we are currently experiencing, even the IPCC has abandoned the Mannian [...]</p>
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