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	<title>Comments on: Ross McKitrick on Mann et al 2007</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 20:29:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Robert Wood</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Wood]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting comments about filling in missing gaps of time series. As a hardware EE, I have found the best implementation, from both a cost and effect perspective, is just to use random noise or repeat the previous data packet(s). These had the least effect upon the spectral characteristics]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments about filling in missing gaps of time series. As a hardware EE, I have found the best implementation, from both a cost and effect perspective, is just to use random noise or repeat the previous data packet(s). These had the least effect upon the spectral characteristics</p>
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		<title>By: Peter D. Tillman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter D. Tillman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ross, I hope you and Steve write up your criticisms of Mann et al (2007) and submit them to JGR. I think your findings, and Steve&#039;s remarks on their idiotic (and repeated) scrambling of their data set, should be put into the formal literature.

[shakes head in disbelief]
Peter D. Tillman
Consulting Geologist, Arizona and New Mexico (USA)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ross, I hope you and Steve write up your criticisms of Mann et al (2007) and submit them to JGR. I think your findings, and Steve&#8217;s remarks on their idiotic (and repeated) scrambling of their data set, should be put into the formal literature.</p>
<p>[shakes head in disbelief]<br />
Peter D. Tillman<br />
Consulting Geologist, Arizona and New Mexico (USA)</p>
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		<title>By: Jean S</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;if we werent doing what we are doing, we be doing something else, which might be optimal if what we were doing happened to fit the optimality conditions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

... which is nice since this purely hypothetical advantage is not offered by other current CFR methods (and also we might bull a reviewer or two with these fancy sounding sentences) :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>if we werent doing what we are doing, we be doing something else, which might be optimal if what we were doing happened to fit the optimality conditions.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230; which is nice since this purely hypothetical advantage is not offered by other current CFR methods (and also we might bull a reviewer or two with these fancy sounding sentences) <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: DAV</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DAV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;tree growth doesnt drive the climate&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There could be feedback but, yes, it&#039;s unlikely that tree ring data would represent a cause in Pearl&#039;s sense.


&lt;blockquote&gt;thus was born regEM. Chances are (just a guess on my part) people developing computer algorithms to fill in random holes in data matrices werent thinking about tree rings and climate when they developed the recursive data algorithm&lt;/blockquote&gt;

One of the pitfalls with the EM algorithm. Its results are best used when the data omissions are not meaningful ,i.e., caused by random events such as coding error vs. say data collection ceasing upon subject&#039;s death. A second pitfall is failing to realize that it only produces &lt;em&gt;expected&lt;/em&gt; results by filling in the most likely value. This is useful say when training a Bayes Net but I agree it&#039;s of questionable value for learning something new. One exception though, might be learning the values of a hidden variable.

Speaking of omission, I admit I haven&#039;t read the paper yet. I&#039;ll have to correct that soon. It&#039;s a bit hard to imagine a cause of meaningful omissions in tree ring data.



&lt;blockquote&gt;regularization process introduces a bias in the estimated missing values &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah. That&#039;s bizarre. If anything, the missing value is replaced with an estimate biased by the other data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>tree growth doesnt drive the climate</p></blockquote>
<p>There could be feedback but, yes, it&#8217;s unlikely that tree ring data would represent a cause in Pearl&#8217;s sense.</p>
<blockquote><p>thus was born regEM. Chances are (just a guess on my part) people developing computer algorithms to fill in random holes in data matrices werent thinking about tree rings and climate when they developed the recursive data algorithm</p></blockquote>
<p>One of the pitfalls with the EM algorithm. Its results are best used when the data omissions are not meaningful ,i.e., caused by random events such as coding error vs. say data collection ceasing upon subject&#8217;s death. A second pitfall is failing to realize that it only produces <em>expected</em> results by filling in the most likely value. This is useful say when training a Bayes Net but I agree it&#8217;s of questionable value for learning something new. One exception though, might be learning the values of a hidden variable.</p>
<p>Speaking of omission, I admit I haven&#8217;t read the paper yet. I&#8217;ll have to correct that soon. It&#8217;s a bit hard to imagine a cause of meaningful omissions in tree ring data.</p>
<blockquote><p>regularization process introduces a bias in the estimated missing values </p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah. That&#8217;s bizarre. If anything, the missing value is replaced with an estimate biased by the other data.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross McKitrick</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross McKitrick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think what they&#039;re calling &quot;regularization&quot;is usually referred to as ridge regression (though maybe there&#039;s a difference I didn&#039;t pick up on). Ridge regression introduces a bias in the slope estimator as a tradeoff for a reduction in the trace of the variance matrix, which makes the standard errors smaller. But you have to make a case why the tradeoff is valid since the ridge parameter can be arbitrary. As far as I know it&#039;s usually associated with collinearity problems, and if you use it you&#039;re expected to show that the size of the introduced bias is small.

The claim that RegEM&#039;s properties are &quot;demonstrably optimal in the limit of no regularization&quot; amounts to saying that ridge regression has the advantage that if you don&#039;t do ridge regression it reduces to OLS, and OLS is optimal, in those cases where OLS is the optimal estimator. In other words, if we weren&#039;t doing what we are doing, we be doing something else, which might be optimal if what we were doing happened to fit the optimality conditions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what they&#8217;re calling &#8220;regularization&#8221;is usually referred to as ridge regression (though maybe there&#8217;s a difference I didn&#8217;t pick up on). Ridge regression introduces a bias in the slope estimator as a tradeoff for a reduction in the trace of the variance matrix, which makes the standard errors smaller. But you have to make a case why the tradeoff is valid since the ridge parameter can be arbitrary. As far as I know it&#8217;s usually associated with collinearity problems, and if you use it you&#8217;re expected to show that the size of the introduced bias is small.</p>
<p>The claim that RegEM&#8217;s properties are &#8220;demonstrably optimal in the limit of no regularization&#8221; amounts to saying that ridge regression has the advantage that if you don&#8217;t do ridge regression it reduces to OLS, and OLS is optimal, in those cases where OLS is the optimal estimator. In other words, if we weren&#8217;t doing what we are doing, we be doing something else, which might be optimal if what we were doing happened to fit the optimality conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean S</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/11/22/ross-mckitrick-on-mann-et-al-2007/#comment-119741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2418#comment-119741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;would raise alarm bells in econometrics&lt;/blockquote&gt;
My alarm bells went wild after reading this (my bold):
&lt;blockquote&gt;As explained by Schneider [2001], under normality assumptions, the conventional EM algorithm without regularization converges to the maximum likelihood estimates of
the mean values, covariance matrices and missing values, which thus enjoy the optimality properties common to maximum likelihood estimates [Little and Rubin, 1987]. In the limit of no regularization, as Schneider [2001] further explains, the RegEM algorithm reduces to the conventional EM algorithm and thus enjoys the same optimality properties. While the &lt;strong&gt;regularization process introduces a bias in the estimated missing  values&lt;/strong&gt; as the price for a reduced variance (the bias/variance trade-off common to all regularized regression approaches), it is advisable in the potentially ill-posed problems common to CFR. Unlike other current CFR methods, RegEM offers the theoretical advantage that its properties are demonstrably optimal in the limit of no regularization.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>would raise alarm bells in econometrics</p></blockquote>
<p>My alarm bells went wild after reading this (my bold):</p>
<blockquote><p>As explained by Schneider [2001], under normality assumptions, the conventional EM algorithm without regularization converges to the maximum likelihood estimates of<br />
the mean values, covariance matrices and missing values, which thus enjoy the optimality properties common to maximum likelihood estimates [Little and Rubin, 1987]. In the limit of no regularization, as Schneider [2001] further explains, the RegEM algorithm reduces to the conventional EM algorithm and thus enjoys the same optimality properties. While the <strong>regularization process introduces a bias in the estimated missing  values</strong> as the price for a reduced variance (the bias/variance trade-off common to all regularized regression approaches), it is advisable in the potentially ill-posed problems common to CFR. Unlike other current CFR methods, RegEM offers the theoretical advantage that its properties are demonstrably optimal in the limit of no regularization.</p></blockquote>
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