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	<title>Comments on: AGU Day 2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: steven mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125405</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steven mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JEG quotes Tom Waits. That makes him ok to moshpit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JEG quotes Tom Waits. That makes him ok to moshpit.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125404</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://thatstrangeweather.blogspot.com/2007/12/lively-feed-from-agu.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Click here for JEG&#039;s blog on AGU &amp; lunch with Steve M&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://thatstrangeweather.blogspot.com/2007/12/lively-feed-from-agu.html" rel="nofollow">Click here for JEG&#8217;s blog on AGU &amp; lunch with Steve M</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alan B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lunch with JEG sounds productive!&lt;a href=&quot;http://thatstrangeweather.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lunch with JEG sounds productive!<a href="http://thatstrangeweather.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: Avfuktare krypgrund</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125402</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Avfuktare krypgrund]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125402</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Has Schwarts replyed to the critisism on his sensitivity analysis?

Schwartz paper: http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf

and critisized e.g. here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/09/climate-insensitivity/

I personally find large parts of the critique to be invalid (e.g. pretending that a GCM is a &quot;system&quot; as the climate; it should be rather embarrasing for a scientist to use a model to falsify a model...), but never the less would not want to miss his answers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Schwarts replyed to the critisism on his sensitivity analysis?</p>
<p>Schwartz paper: <a href="http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf</a></p>
<p>and critisized e.g. here: <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/09/climate-insensitivity/" rel="nofollow">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/09/climate-insensitivity/</a></p>
<p>I personally find large parts of the critique to be invalid (e.g. pretending that a GCM is a &#8220;system&#8221; as the climate; it should be rather embarrasing for a scientist to use a model to falsify a model&#8230;), but never the less would not want to miss his answers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Urbinto</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125401</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Urbinto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I&#039;ve been saying!   Do we really know what&#039;s happening in how the airborne ones act in conjunction with the non-GHG, non-AGHG, AGHG and clouds in the first place, much less what they&#039;re doing on the ground?  What&#039;s the ratio heating/cooling overall?

Hmmmm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;ve been saying!   Do we really know what&#8217;s happening in how the airborne ones act in conjunction with the non-GHG, non-AGHG, AGHG and clouds in the first place, much less what they&#8217;re doing on the ground?  What&#8217;s the ratio heating/cooling overall?</p>
<p>Hmmmm.</p>
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		<title>By: Ferdinand Engelbeen</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125400</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ferdinand Engelbeen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About aerosols:

The Pinatubo eruption injected some &lt;a href=&quot;http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/climate.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;20 million tonnes&lt;/a&gt; of SO2 directly into the stratosphere, where it stayed for 2-3 years (to make it convenient, lets say 800 days). The total effect (including water vapour feedback) was a cooling of maximum 0.6 ºC. Humans emit around &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/167.htm#tab52&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;80 million tonnes&lt;/a&gt; per year, mainly in the troposphere where it lasts for average 4 days. The direct effect of both (scattering on wetted sulphate particles) is virtually the same, which means that the direct effect of human made aerosols is around 0.025 ºC (including a 4-day accumulation). Tropospheric aerosols also have an indirect effect on clouds (more reflective, longer lasting). The IPCC gives a fourfold range increase for this forcing, compared to the direct effect. If we assume this is right, then the net effect of human made SO2 emissions would be 0.1 ºC.

That is only for cooling aerosols, but black carbon (coal) and the Asian brown cloud (wood, browncoal, peat), are warming the lower troposphere above India (and China?) + albedo changes over snow and ice fields...

Thus the net effect of all aerosols together may be positive, not negative...

Further detailed comments at RC, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=168#comment-3129&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=245#comment-8526&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&lt;/a&gt;, the latter without any reaction of the guest specialists in aerosols, Ron Miller and Dorothy Koch from NASA GISS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About aerosols:</p>
<p>The Pinatubo eruption injected some <a href="http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/climate.html" rel="nofollow">20 million tonnes</a> of SO2 directly into the stratosphere, where it stayed for 2-3 years (to make it convenient, lets say 800 days). The total effect (including water vapour feedback) was a cooling of maximum 0.6 ºC. Humans emit around <a href="http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/167.htm#tab52" rel="nofollow">80 million tonnes</a> per year, mainly in the troposphere where it lasts for average 4 days. The direct effect of both (scattering on wetted sulphate particles) is virtually the same, which means that the direct effect of human made aerosols is around 0.025 ºC (including a 4-day accumulation). Tropospheric aerosols also have an indirect effect on clouds (more reflective, longer lasting). The IPCC gives a fourfold range increase for this forcing, compared to the direct effect. If we assume this is right, then the net effect of human made SO2 emissions would be 0.1 ºC.</p>
<p>That is only for cooling aerosols, but black carbon (coal) and the Asian brown cloud (wood, browncoal, peat), are warming the lower troposphere above India (and China?) + albedo changes over snow and ice fields&#8230;</p>
<p>Thus the net effect of all aerosols together may be positive, not negative&#8230;</p>
<p>Further detailed comments at RC, <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=168#comment-3129" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=245#comment-8526" rel="nofollow"> here</a>, the latter without any reaction of the guest specialists in aerosols, Ron Miller and Dorothy Koch from NASA GISS.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Urbinto</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125399</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Urbinto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks trevor.  Perhaps I should have given which decade was which and the significance of the temp anomaly:

1966-1975 +.00C anomaly trend (19.8%), +10 ppmv CO2
1996-2005 +.22C anomaly trend (94.5%), +20 ppmv CO2
1895-1904 -.16C anomaly trend (88.7%), +02 ppmv CO2
1986-1995 +.09C anomaly trend (78.9%), +14 ppmv CO2
1976-1985 +.12C anomaly trend (44.1%), +14 ppmv CO2
1956-1965 +.00C anomaly trend (06.6%), +06 ppmv CO2

What I wonder is what 2006-2015 is going to look like....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks trevor.  Perhaps I should have given which decade was which and the significance of the temp anomaly:</p>
<p>1966-1975 +.00C anomaly trend (19.8%), +10 ppmv CO2<br />
1996-2005 +.22C anomaly trend (94.5%), +20 ppmv CO2<br />
1895-1904 -.16C anomaly trend (88.7%), +02 ppmv CO2<br />
1986-1995 +.09C anomaly trend (78.9%), +14 ppmv CO2<br />
1976-1985 +.12C anomaly trend (44.1%), +14 ppmv CO2<br />
1956-1965 +.00C anomaly trend (06.6%), +06 ppmv CO2</p>
<p>What I wonder is what 2006-2015 is going to look like&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Nasif Nahle</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125398</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nasif Nahle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the other hand, the standard temperature for the northern hemisphere is 300.15 K (27 °C or 80.6 F), than any deviation from that temperature must be considered a change of temperature. If it was true, then the change of temperature for the last month on my latitude would be 3 K Impossible, isnt it? However, if I consider than the median of temperature for November on my latitude along the last century was 293 K, then the change of temperature for the last month would be only 0.15 K, which is more credible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, the standard temperature for the northern hemisphere is 300.15 K (27 °C or 80.6 F), than any deviation from that temperature must be considered a change of temperature. If it was true, then the change of temperature for the last month on my latitude would be 3 K Impossible, isnt it? However, if I consider than the median of temperature for November on my latitude along the last century was 293 K, then the change of temperature for the last month would be only 0.15 K, which is more credible.</p>
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		<title>By: Nasif Nahle</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125397</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nasif Nahle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[# 10

Lucia,

Yours is a very important question that must be answered in a straight way. Which one from delta T, F and S is well known? I always wondered why the modelers took the delta T of the 1870s like the &quot;standard&quot; when the most plausible delta T to be a &quot;standard&quot; delta T is that one corresponding to the last 12000 years. The problem with that ample delta T is that it is enough wide (some 3-7 K) as to blur the current global warming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 10</p>
<p>Lucia,</p>
<p>Yours is a very important question that must be answered in a straight way. Which one from delta T, F and S is well known? I always wondered why the modelers took the delta T of the 1870s like the &#8220;standard&#8221; when the most plausible delta T to be a &#8220;standard&#8221; delta T is that one corresponding to the last 12000 years. The problem with that ample delta T is that it is enough wide (some 3-7 K) as to blur the current global warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Leon Palmer</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2007/12/12/agu-day-2/#comment-125396</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leon Palmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2503#comment-125396</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re 41

Hi Paul, I quote (in 37) from real climate&#039;s dismissal of  the  paper, not the paper.

Real climate&#039;s analysis of the paper concludes with the quote in #37 (as I read it)  that the real climate&#039;s estimate of the uncertainties in the observations used in the paper are too large  to rule out  the GCMs (with reasonable model uncertainty applied by real climate) fitting the observations.

That struck me as real climate applying Steve&#039;s auditing principals that if the observations are uncertain and the models are uncertain, then the models have no prediction power.

So Steve is having more impact than imagined on real climate, they&#039;re adopting Steve&#039;s approach!

And it a further test of  the predictive power of climateaudit.org that mentioning Steve on real climate results in immediate removal of the offending comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 41</p>
<p>Hi Paul, I quote (in 37) from real climate&#8217;s dismissal of  the  paper, not the paper.</p>
<p>Real climate&#8217;s analysis of the paper concludes with the quote in #37 (as I read it)  that the real climate&#8217;s estimate of the uncertainties in the observations used in the paper are too large  to rule out  the GCMs (with reasonable model uncertainty applied by real climate) fitting the observations.</p>
<p>That struck me as real climate applying Steve&#8217;s auditing principals that if the observations are uncertain and the models are uncertain, then the models have no prediction power.</p>
<p>So Steve is having more impact than imagined on real climate, they&#8217;re adopting Steve&#8217;s approach!</p>
<p>And it a further test of  the predictive power of climateaudit.org that mentioning Steve on real climate results in immediate removal of the offending comment.</p>
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