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	<title>Comments on: Tamino and the PC4</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 15:32:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Has Tamino taken up your idea here? Have you emailed him offblog etc? Any communication at all?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Tamino taken up your idea here? Have you emailed him offblog etc? Any communication at all?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: frost</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frost]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 02:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-224128&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;91, Hu&lt;/a&gt;
This is for a hobby project so spending money is out. Thanks for the tip, tho.
Re: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-224119&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McI&#039;s reply&lt;/a&gt;
I&#039;m a rank beginner in statistics (actually that overstates my capabilities) so I was hoping for something really easy to use. After all, the fate of the globe does not hang on this investigation. However, since you&#039;ve given me a recipe, I&#039;ll give R a try. Thanks for taking the time to respond.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-224128" rel="nofollow">91, Hu</a><br />
This is for a hobby project so spending money is out. Thanks for the tip, tho.<br />
Re: <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-224119" rel="nofollow">Steve McI&#8217;s reply</a><br />
I&#8217;m a rank beginner in statistics (actually that overstates my capabilities) so I was hoping for something really easy to use. After all, the fate of the globe does not hang on this investigation. However, since you&#8217;ve given me a recipe, I&#8217;ll give R a try. Thanks for taking the time to respond.</p>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140227</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 06:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Is it PC1 of the partially centered tree ring data?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


No, PC1, along with other proxy data is fed to classical calibration algorithm (with some modifications), temperature PCs as targets. Proxy PC1 gets the second largest weight in AD1400 step, largest is assigned to Gaspe series. Without those two, you&#039;ll get warm 15th century (#45).



&lt;blockquote&gt;Or is it a linear combination of PC&#039;s from several data sets?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Linear combination of proxy PCs + raw proxy records.




&lt;blockquote&gt;Does it involve any time domain splicing of “reconstructions” or PC&#039;s?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


11 steps.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Is it PC1 of the partially centered tree ring data?
</p></blockquote>
<p>No, PC1, along with other proxy data is fed to classical calibration algorithm (with some modifications), temperature PCs as targets. Proxy PC1 gets the second largest weight in AD1400 step, largest is assigned to Gaspe series. Without those two, you&#8217;ll get warm 15th century (#45).</p>
<blockquote><p>Or is it a linear combination of PC&#8217;s from several data sets?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Linear combination of proxy PCs + raw proxy records.</p>
<blockquote><p>Does it involve any time domain splicing of “reconstructions” or PC&#8217;s?
</p></blockquote>
<p>11 steps.</p>
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		<title>By: Otto</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 02:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[steve said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Also, as I&#039;ve said on many occasions, the studies rely heavily on “data snooping&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Isn&#039;t this an accusation of fraud?

&lt;strong&gt;Steve:  &lt;/strong&gt; &quot;Data snooping&quot; is a statistical concept used in econometrics and contains no such implication.  IT occurs in other fields. Proponents typically believe (incorrectly) that their decisions are good ones.  See posts on Greene and references there.  If there has been data snooping, then normal statistical tests don&#039;t apply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>steve said:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Also, as I&#8217;ve said on many occasions, the studies rely heavily on “data snooping</p></blockquote>
<p>Isn&#8217;t this an accusation of fraud?</p>
<p><strong>Steve:  </strong> &#8220;Data snooping&#8221; is a statistical concept used in econometrics and contains no such implication.  IT occurs in other fields. Proponents typically believe (incorrectly) that their decisions are good ones.  See posts on Greene and references there.  If there has been data snooping, then normal statistical tests don&#8217;t apply.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140225</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140225</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, as I&#039;ve said on many occasions, the studies rely heavily on &quot;data snooping&quot; i.e. re-use of proxies where the shapes are known e.g. bristlecone/foxtails, Yamal, Yang China; plus opportunistic choices of which version to use - e.g. Yamal rather than Polar Urals update.  Very slight variations in selections leads to reversal of the medieval-modern relationship.  The difference is very sensitive to a few accounting choices.

The authors of these studies are hardly &quot;independent&quot; as this term is understood in public businesses. Bradley and/or Jones have coauthored with most of them. The proxies aren&#039;t independent (See Wegman on this as well) nor are the authors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, as I&#8217;ve said on many occasions, the studies rely heavily on &#8220;data snooping&#8221; i.e. re-use of proxies where the shapes are known e.g. bristlecone/foxtails, Yamal, Yang China; plus opportunistic choices of which version to use &#8211; e.g. Yamal rather than Polar Urals update.  Very slight variations in selections leads to reversal of the medieval-modern relationship.  The difference is very sensitive to a few accounting choices.</p>
<p>The authors of these studies are hardly &#8220;independent&#8221; as this term is understood in public businesses. Bradley and/or Jones have coauthored with most of them. The proxies aren&#8217;t independent (See Wegman on this as well) nor are the authors.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Loehle</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Loehle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BoulderSolar asks: &quot;I hear comments like this as a rebuttal to criticisms of MBH:

“There are 14 subsequent papers that take different approaches to the same question and data, using different statistical techniques and different selection criteria for data inclusion and so on - and arrive at very close to the same answers.”

I&#039;d like someone to respond to this. Is it true?&quot;

If you use proxies that are not really temperature proxies (i.e., your assumptions are wrong) you will get white noise out of your model, and the mean of the white noise will be some sort of fairly flat output over the simulated period (the shaft of the hockey stick).  Then by picking out a few proxies that correlate with your temperature &quot;signal&quot; you get the blade, and you have your hockey stick.  That is, a failed temperature reconstruction will look just like the spagetti graph in IPCC up to 1900.  They never have shown that their approach works with out of sample data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BoulderSolar asks: &#8220;I hear comments like this as a rebuttal to criticisms of MBH:</p>
<p>“There are 14 subsequent papers that take different approaches to the same question and data, using different statistical techniques and different selection criteria for data inclusion and so on &#8211; and arrive at very close to the same answers.”</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like someone to respond to this. Is it true?&#8221;</p>
<p>If you use proxies that are not really temperature proxies (i.e., your assumptions are wrong) you will get white noise out of your model, and the mean of the white noise will be some sort of fairly flat output over the simulated period (the shaft of the hockey stick).  Then by picking out a few proxies that correlate with your temperature &#8220;signal&#8221; you get the blade, and you have your hockey stick.  That is, a failed temperature reconstruction will look just like the spagetti graph in IPCC up to 1900.  They never have shown that their approach works with out of sample data.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mike B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140223</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For UC, Jean S., Steve, and whoever else would like to take a shot at it...

I thought I knew the answer to this question, but now I&#039;m not so sure.

What exactly is the &lt;strong&gt;MBH98 Reconstruction&lt;/strong&gt;?

Is it PC1 of the partially centered tree ring data?

Or is it a linear combination of PC&#039;s from several data sets?

Does it involve any time domain splicing of &quot;reconstructions&quot; or PC&#039;s?

Or does the &quot;reconstruction&quot; not involve PC&#039;s at all?

Thanks in advance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For UC, Jean S., Steve, and whoever else would like to take a shot at it&#8230;</p>
<p>I thought I knew the answer to this question, but now I&#8217;m not so sure.</p>
<p>What exactly is the <strong>MBH98 Reconstruction</strong>?</p>
<p>Is it PC1 of the partially centered tree ring data?</p>
<p>Or is it a linear combination of PC&#8217;s from several data sets?</p>
<p>Does it involve any time domain splicing of &#8220;reconstructions&#8221; or PC&#8217;s?</p>
<p>Or does the &#8220;reconstruction&#8221; not involve PC&#8217;s at all?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: Hu McCulloch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hu McCulloch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Frost says in #90,
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Are there any simple programs that will do PCA? I would guess that R would be able to do that but I&#039;m hoping for something that is more beginner friendly. This is for a non-climate related problem.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;
EViews 6.0 has a newly expanded PCA capacity that is quite easy to use.  It&#039;s a little expensive, though, unless you&#039;re at a university with a site licence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frost says in #90,</p>
<blockquote><p>
Are there any simple programs that will do PCA? I would guess that R would be able to do that but I&#8217;m hoping for something that is more beginner friendly. This is for a non-climate related problem.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>EViews 6.0 has a newly expanded PCA capacity that is quite easy to use.  It&#8217;s a little expensive, though, unless you&#8217;re at a university with a site licence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: frost</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frost]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are there any simple programs that will do PCA? I would guess that R would be able to do that but I&#039;m hoping for something that is more beginner friendly. This is for a non-climate related problem.
&lt;strong&gt;
Steve:  &lt;/strong&gt;  I started using R from scratch. Let&#039;s say that you have a matrix X and you want do a PC analysis. Here&#039;s all you do:
pca0 =prcomp(X) for a covariance; the left is in pca0$x; the eigenvalues in pca0$sd and the right in pc0$rotation
pca1=prcomp(X,scale=TRUE) for correlation PCs

Or if you want to do a SVD, it&#039;s just as easy&quot;
svd0= svd(scale(X,scale=FALSE)) for covariance
svd1 = svd(scale(X)) for correlation

What could be easier?

IMHO no one should consider doing statistical work other than via R these days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are there any simple programs that will do PCA? I would guess that R would be able to do that but I&#8217;m hoping for something that is more beginner friendly. This is for a non-climate related problem.<br />
<strong><br />
Steve:  </strong>  I started using R from scratch. Let&#8217;s say that you have a matrix X and you want do a PC analysis. Here&#8217;s all you do:<br />
pca0 =prcomp(X) for a covariance; the left is in pca0$x; the eigenvalues in pca0$sd and the right in pc0$rotation<br />
pca1=prcomp(X,scale=TRUE) for correlation PCs</p>
<p>Or if you want to do a SVD, it&#8217;s just as easy&#8221;<br />
svd0= svd(scale(X,scale=FALSE)) for covariance<br />
svd1 = svd(scale(X)) for correlation</p>
<p>What could be easier?</p>
<p>IMHO no one should consider doing statistical work other than via R these days.</p>
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		<title>By: jae</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/03/11/mannian-pca-2-some-straw-men/#comment-140220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2844#comment-140220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;and different selection criteria for data inclusion

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

LOL, I doubt that they are THAT much different.  e.g., find me one of those papers that does not &quot;select&quot; BCPs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>and different selection criteria for data inclusion</p>
</blockquote>
<p>LOL, I doubt that they are THAT much different.  e.g., find me one of those papers that does not &#8220;select&#8221; BCPs.</p>
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