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	<title>Comments on: Hansen Update</title>
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	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:47:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: thisisnotgoodtogo</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403615</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[thisisnotgoodtogo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Mar 2013 15:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is from IPCC data distribution centre  

&quot;Projection

The term &quot;projection&quot; is used in two senses in the climate change literature. In general usage, a projection can be regarded as any description of the future and the pathway leading to it. However, a more specific interpretation has been attached to the term &quot;climate projection&quot; by the IPCC when referring to model-derived estimates of future climate.

Forecast/Prediction

When a projection is branded &quot;most likely&quot; it becomes a forecast or prediction. A forecast is often obtained using deterministic models, possibly a set of these, outputs of which can enable some level of confidence to be attached to projections.

Scenario

A scenario is a coherent, internally consistent and plausible description of a possible future state of the world. It is not a forecast; rather, each scenario is one alternative image of how the future can unfold. A projection may serve as the raw material for a scenario, but scenarios often require additional information (e.g., about baseline conditions). A set of scenarios is often adopted to reflect, as well as possible, the range of uncertainty in projections. Other terms that have been used as synonyms for scenario are &quot;characterisation&quot;, &quot;storyline&quot; and &quot;construction&quot;.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is from IPCC data distribution centre  </p>
<p>&#8220;Projection</p>
<p>The term &#8220;projection&#8221; is used in two senses in the climate change literature. In general usage, a projection can be regarded as any description of the future and the pathway leading to it. However, a more specific interpretation has been attached to the term &#8220;climate projection&#8221; by the IPCC when referring to model-derived estimates of future climate.</p>
<p>Forecast/Prediction</p>
<p>When a projection is branded &#8220;most likely&#8221; it becomes a forecast or prediction. A forecast is often obtained using deterministic models, possibly a set of these, outputs of which can enable some level of confidence to be attached to projections.</p>
<p>Scenario</p>
<p>A scenario is a coherent, internally consistent and plausible description of a possible future state of the world. It is not a forecast; rather, each scenario is one alternative image of how the future can unfold. A projection may serve as the raw material for a scenario, but scenarios often require additional information (e.g., about baseline conditions). A set of scenarios is often adopted to reflect, as well as possible, the range of uncertainty in projections. Other terms that have been used as synonyms for scenario are &#8220;characterisation&#8221;, &#8220;storyline&#8221; and &#8220;construction&#8221;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: thisisnotgoodtogo</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[thisisnotgoodtogo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Mar 2013 14:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick Stokes, you said
&quot;Scenarios don’t predict anything. They are an acknowledgement of the numbers that are needed for the calculation that can’t be predicted by the analysis methods being used. That’s why there are A, B and C, to cover the range of what might happen. You check afterward to see which came closest.&quot;

True that scenarios don&#039;t, but projections are predictions under certain conditions(e.g when the words &quot;most likely&quot; are attached). See definitions pages at IPCC and WMO.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick Stokes, you said<br />
&#8220;Scenarios don’t predict anything. They are an acknowledgement of the numbers that are needed for the calculation that can’t be predicted by the analysis methods being used. That’s why there are A, B and C, to cover the range of what might happen. You check afterward to see which came closest.&#8221;</p>
<p>True that scenarios don&#8217;t, but projections are predictions under certain conditions(e.g when the words &#8220;most likely&#8221; are attached). See definitions pages at IPCC and WMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Machnee</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerald Machnee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Mar 2013 14:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[***Scenarios don’t predict anything.***
As usual Nick is playing with words. As soon as you project into the future you are predicting. Hansen is only covering his butt by using 3 &quot;scenarios&quot;. That way in the future he can say it was &quot;accurate&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>***Scenarios don’t predict anything.***<br />
As usual Nick is playing with words. As soon as you project into the future you are predicting. Hansen is only covering his butt by using 3 &#8220;scenarios&#8221;. That way in the future he can say it was &#8220;accurate&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403526</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Mar 2013 21:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403526</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David,
Scenarios don&#039;t predict anything. They are an acknowledgement of the numbers that are needed for the calculation that can&#039;t be predicted by the analysis methods being used. That&#039;s why there are A, B and C, to cover the range of what might happen. You check afterward to see which came closest.

He made that very clear in the introduction:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;In this paper we study the response of a 3D global climate model to realistic rates of change of radiative forcing mechanisms.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Response to forcing. That&#039;s what his analysis calculates. Not airborne fraction etc. And he&#039;s entitled to assume that readers of that journal would understand that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,<br />
Scenarios don&#8217;t predict anything. They are an acknowledgement of the numbers that are needed for the calculation that can&#8217;t be predicted by the analysis methods being used. That&#8217;s why there are A, B and C, to cover the range of what might happen. You check afterward to see which came closest.</p>
<p>He made that very clear in the introduction:<br />
<i>&#8220;In this paper we study the response of a 3D global climate model to realistic rates of change of radiative forcing mechanisms.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Response to forcing. That&#8217;s what his analysis calculates. Not airborne fraction etc. And he&#8217;s entitled to assume that readers of that journal would understand that.</p>
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		<title>By: David Young</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Young]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Mar 2013 19:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kurt makes an excellent point.  Predicting forcing as a function of emissions is critical for policy and Hansen got that very wrong.  He of course erred in making it seem much worse than it is, so typical in this field.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt makes an excellent point.  Predicting forcing as a function of emissions is critical for policy and Hansen got that very wrong.  He of course erred in making it seem much worse than it is, so typical in this field.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt in Switzerland</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt in Switzerland]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick,

Read my posting above. BAU [wrt CO2] (Scenario A) called for an annual increase in anthro emissions of CO2 of 1.5%. 
Source: Global Climate Changes... Hansen et al 1988

&quot;Ch. 4.1 Trace Gases
Scenario A assumes that growth rates of trace gas emissions typical of the 1970s and 1980s will continue indefinitely; the assumed annual growth averages about 1.5% of current emissions, so the net greenhouse forcing increasese xponentially.&quot;

Instead, from 1990-2010, human emissions went up 45%, or 1.9% p.a. 
Source: http://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/CO2REPORT2012.pdf
Table A.1.2 P28

Kurt in Switzerland]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>Read my posting above. BAU [wrt CO2] (Scenario A) called for an annual increase in anthro emissions of CO2 of 1.5%.<br />
Source: Global Climate Changes&#8230; Hansen et al 1988</p>
<p>&#8220;Ch. 4.1 Trace Gases<br />
Scenario A assumes that growth rates of trace gas emissions typical of the 1970s and 1980s will continue indefinitely; the assumed annual growth averages about 1.5% of current emissions, so the net greenhouse forcing increasese xponentially.&#8221;</p>
<p>Instead, from 1990-2010, human emissions went up 45%, or 1.9% p.a.<br />
Source: <a href="http://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/CO2REPORT2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/CO2REPORT2012.pdf</a><br />
Table A.1.2 P28</p>
<p>Kurt in Switzerland</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;My point (summarized well by Steve) is that Hansen got it very wrong on the relationship between the human emissions and the climate;&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
 He was modelling forcings and climate. But anyway, where are your numbers that show he got it wrong?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;My point (summarized well by Steve) is that Hansen got it very wrong on the relationship between the human emissions and the climate;&#8221;</i><br />
 He was modelling forcings and climate. But anyway, where are your numbers that show he got it wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt in Switzerland</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403223</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kurt in Switzerland]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 20:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick,

What is it about the term &quot;emissions&quot; which you don&#039;t comprehend?

There are two poorly-understood relationships regarding Carbon Dioxide:

1) how emissions affect the atmospheric concentration (short and long term)
2) how atmospheric concentration affects &quot;global climate&quot;

Granted, #2 is the sexier of the two (and gets most of the attention). 

But the public policy discussion is all about emissions (and not about concentration). And both are important to complete the picture. 

My point (summarized well by Steve) is that Hansen got it very wrong on the relationship between the human emissions and the climate; this involves steps 1 and 2 above. 

Clear now?

Kurt in Switzerland]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>What is it about the term &#8220;emissions&#8221; which you don&#8217;t comprehend?</p>
<p>There are two poorly-understood relationships regarding Carbon Dioxide:</p>
<p>1) how emissions affect the atmospheric concentration (short and long term)<br />
2) how atmospheric concentration affects &#8220;global climate&#8221;</p>
<p>Granted, #2 is the sexier of the two (and gets most of the attention). </p>
<p>But the public policy discussion is all about emissions (and not about concentration). And both are important to complete the picture. </p>
<p>My point (summarized well by Steve) is that Hansen got it very wrong on the relationship between the human emissions and the climate; this involves steps 1 and 2 above. </p>
<p>Clear now?</p>
<p>Kurt in Switzerland</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,
The ratio of human emissions to increment in air ppm is called the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_fraction&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;airborne fraction&lt;/a&gt;, and I think Wiki gives a fair summary of opinion about it - it had been thought to be remarkably stable, but some people think it is changing recently. There have been assertions here that there is a mismatch, but I don&#039;t see anything quantitative.

But in terms of the functionality of Hansen&#039;s model, this is not relevant. That model works out the temperature response to a forcing. The time history of the forcing is the scenario input. The model was not expected to be able to determine airborne fraction. It doesn&#039;t even add knowledge of the relation between gas ppm and forcing in watts/m2; for that it uses published empirical relations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
The ratio of human emissions to increment in air ppm is called the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_fraction" rel="nofollow">airborne fraction</a>, and I think Wiki gives a fair summary of opinion about it &#8211; it had been thought to be remarkably stable, but some people think it is changing recently. There have been assertions here that there is a mismatch, but I don&#8217;t see anything quantitative.</p>
<p>But in terms of the functionality of Hansen&#8217;s model, this is not relevant. That model works out the temperature response to a forcing. The time history of the forcing is the scenario input. The model was not expected to be able to determine airborne fraction. It doesn&#8217;t even add knowledge of the relation between gas ppm and forcing in watts/m2; for that it uses published empirical relations.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2008/07/28/hansen-update/#comment-403177</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=3354#comment-403177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nick, as I observed at the time, the Scenario B is a reasonable projection of atmospheric CO2 levels.  However, I think that the point that you are objecting to is a little different: CO2 &lt;strong&gt;emissions&lt;/strong&gt; are measured in tonnes of CO2 emitted; atmospheric CO2 levels in ppm is affected by emissions but is not the same thing - a point that one would presume that most climate scientists would be aware. Over the past decade, the rate of increase in CO2 emissions (in tonnes CO2) has actually increased faster than the corresponding increase in atmospheric CO2 (in ppm). It&#039;s an interesting phenomenon that hasn&#039;t been discussed as much as it should be.

Reasonable people can disagree on the meaning of Scenario B in terms of CO2 &lt;strong&gt;emissions&lt;/strong&gt; since it is expressed in ppm.  My guess is that CO2 &lt;strong&gt;emissions&lt;/strong&gt; in tonnes would rise more steeply than Scenario B if plotted against the Hansen graphic. Collating CO2 emission numbers on a consistent basis requires some care in data handling. I&#039;ve looked at this a little, but not posted on it. I&#039;ll do this exercise some time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, as I observed at the time, the Scenario B is a reasonable projection of atmospheric CO2 levels.  However, I think that the point that you are objecting to is a little different: CO2 <strong>emissions</strong> are measured in tonnes of CO2 emitted; atmospheric CO2 levels in ppm is affected by emissions but is not the same thing &#8211; a point that one would presume that most climate scientists would be aware. Over the past decade, the rate of increase in CO2 emissions (in tonnes CO2) has actually increased faster than the corresponding increase in atmospheric CO2 (in ppm). It&#8217;s an interesting phenomenon that hasn&#8217;t been discussed as much as it should be.</p>
<p>Reasonable people can disagree on the meaning of Scenario B in terms of CO2 <strong>emissions</strong> since it is expressed in ppm.  My guess is that CO2 <strong>emissions</strong> in tonnes would rise more steeply than Scenario B if plotted against the Hansen graphic. Collating CO2 emission numbers on a consistent basis requires some care in data handling. I&#8217;ve looked at this a little, but not posted on it. I&#8217;ll do this exercise some time.</p>
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