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	<title>Comments on: Smerdon et al 2008 on RegEM</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 May 2013 19:12:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Skiphil</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-398922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skiphil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-398922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Smerdon et al. (2013) continues to criticize the Mann-Rutherford corpus rather sharply, if briefly (it is only a Reply to a Comment):

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/2013_jclim_data/2013_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smerdon et al. (2013) continues to criticize the Mann-Rutherford corpus rather sharply, if briefly (it is only a Reply to a Comment):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/2013_jclim_data/2013_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/2013_jclim_data/2013_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Skiphil</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-398892</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skiphil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-398892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a current BH thread discusses, the picture got much worse but now Mann et al. claim it doesn&#039;t matter because they have moved on again after this inconvenient dismemberment of their work:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/papers/2010b_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a current BH thread discusses, the picture got much worse but now Mann et al. claim it doesn&#8217;t matter because they have moved on again after this inconvenient dismemberment of their work:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/papers/2010b_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~jsmerdon/papers/2010b_jclim_smerdonetal.pdf</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mann 2008 &#8211; Replication II &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-297135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mann 2008 &#8211; Replication II &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jul 2011 11:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-297135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] here (two 3 MB zip files). High-frequency recon19 shows that I wasn&#8217;t completely lost with this comment suggesting RegEM is ICE-like calibration method [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here (two 3 MB zip files). High-frequency recon19 shows that I wasn&#8217;t completely lost with this comment suggesting RegEM is ICE-like calibration method [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-210783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-210783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just as an FYI for anyone who had previously read this thread, the Steig study apparently used the original Schneider code . . . either that, or in Steig&#039;s case, the differences between the Mann-Rutherford version and the original version are negligible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as an FYI for anyone who had previously read this thread, the Steig study apparently used the original Schneider code . . . either that, or in Steig&#8217;s case, the differences between the Mann-Rutherford version and the original version are negligible.</p>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some time ago Jean S &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=926#comment-71590&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote&lt;/a&gt;


&lt;blockquote&gt;The book by C.R. Rao (Yes, THE Rao) and H. Toutenburg is an excellent buy if you want an uptodate account of the linear models. It is interesting to follow the work of the Team from this 400+ page book: Hegerl 2006 (total least squares, p. 70) is slightly more advanced (in terms of page numbers) than MBH (partial least squares, p. 65). Judging from that the next attempt will be minimax estimation (p. 72) or censored regression/LAD estimators (p. 80). ;)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

..and if I&#039;m correctly linking this thread to Rao&#039;s book, we are now on the Ch8, &lt;em&gt;Analysis of Incomplete Data Sets&lt;/em&gt; . And the point I&#039;m after is that do we have (8.4) &lt;em&gt;Missing Data in the Response&lt;/em&gt; (solution ICE - type calibration ) , or (8.6) &lt;em&gt;Missing Values in the X-matrix&lt;/em&gt; ( one-regressor solution, p. 257,  looks like CCE - type to me ) . As I noted before, it seems to me that RegEM is close to ICE. I wrote short script to test this, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/testreg.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;

And, as bender &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5151#comment-326444&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;mentioned&lt;/a&gt;  extrapolator vs. interpolator concept, you can try this script with missing values in the middle:



or missing values at the end:



It is quite clear that if values to be imputed values are not &#039;like&#039; the calibration values, and SNR is as low as in all these proxy studies, regEM (tried without options! ) won&#039;t work. CIs are based on calibration data, and that won&#039;t do if we want to see whether current temperatures are unprecedented.

Kalman smooth CCE output, that&#039;s my suggestion. Start with random walk model for temperature, it doesn&#039;t have to be perfect model at the beginning ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some time ago Jean S <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=926#comment-71590" rel="nofollow">wrote</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The book by C.R. Rao (Yes, THE Rao) and H. Toutenburg is an excellent buy if you want an uptodate account of the linear models. It is interesting to follow the work of the Team from this 400+ page book: Hegerl 2006 (total least squares, p. 70) is slightly more advanced (in terms of page numbers) than MBH (partial least squares, p. 65). Judging from that the next attempt will be minimax estimation (p. 72) or censored regression/LAD estimators (p. 80). <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />
</p></blockquote>
<p>..and if I&#8217;m correctly linking this thread to Rao&#8217;s book, we are now on the Ch8, <em>Analysis of Incomplete Data Sets</em> . And the point I&#8217;m after is that do we have (8.4) <em>Missing Data in the Response</em> (solution ICE &#8211; type calibration ) , or (8.6) <em>Missing Values in the X-matrix</em> ( one-regressor solution, p. 257,  looks like CCE &#8211; type to me ) . As I noted before, it seems to me that RegEM is close to ICE. I wrote short script to test this, <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/testreg.txt" rel="nofollow">here</a></p>
<p>And, as bender <a href="http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5151#comment-326444" rel="nofollow">mentioned</a>  extrapolator vs. interpolator concept, you can try this script with missing values in the middle:</p>
<p>or missing values at the end:</p>
<p>It is quite clear that if values to be imputed values are not &#8216;like&#8217; the calibration values, and SNR is as low as in all these proxy studies, regEM (tried without options! ) won&#8217;t work. CIs are based on calibration data, and that won&#8217;t do if we want to see whether current temperatures are unprecedented.</p>
<p>Kalman smooth CCE output, that&#8217;s my suggestion. Start with random walk model for temperature, it doesn&#8217;t have to be perfect model at the beginning <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Robinedwards</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176974</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robinedwards]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve posted elsewhere on this infilling problem, and the problems I have with the solutions that have been used.  Having just come across the lively discussion in this thread I see that I am not alone in having doubts about the validity of extensive infilling.  No-one really prefers infillings (or indeed proxies) if real temperature data are available, but thermometers didn&#039;t appear until the end of the 18th century, and even now they are not easy to install and maintain in remote, very cold regions.  So we have a severe problem which those versed in the arcane arts of powerful statistical software are tackling.  It seems that some practitioners are less careful than others about their data provenance, and we must be very grateful indeed for the group of engineers/statisticians who inhabit this remarkable blog and who alert the world to these unfortunate habits.

However, it still seems to me that synthesising data in an attempt to redress the lack of physical measurements in Antarctica is a worrysome procedure which would be difficult to justify to those policy-makers who currently wield absolute power in the world of climate science.  Not that they any notice of anything that runs counter to their preconceived notions, of course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve posted elsewhere on this infilling problem, and the problems I have with the solutions that have been used.  Having just come across the lively discussion in this thread I see that I am not alone in having doubts about the validity of extensive infilling.  No-one really prefers infillings (or indeed proxies) if real temperature data are available, but thermometers didn&#8217;t appear until the end of the 18th century, and even now they are not easy to install and maintain in remote, very cold regions.  So we have a severe problem which those versed in the arcane arts of powerful statistical software are tackling.  It seems that some practitioners are less careful than others about their data provenance, and we must be very grateful indeed for the group of engineers/statisticians who inhabit this remarkable blog and who alert the world to these unfortunate habits.</p>
<p>However, it still seems to me that synthesising data in an attempt to redress the lack of physical measurements in Antarctica is a worrysome procedure which would be difficult to justify to those policy-makers who currently wield absolute power in the world of climate science.  Not that they any notice of anything that runs counter to their preconceived notions, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Id</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176973</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Id]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 14:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spatial weigting is one of the main issues I have with the RegEM implementation in the antarctic.  The fact that the data are piled together into a matrix with no attempt to insure that a station on the west antarctic has as little effect as possible on the east antarctic makes my head hurt. There is also the problem of station density in a particular area.

Jeff C has regridded the Antarctic data according to proximity in an effort to reduce the dominance of high density stations over the rest of the reconstruction.  Just by reasonable regridding (still not taking the proximity to the reconstructed station into account) the AWS trend is cut in half!!

http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/aws-gridded-reconstruction/

&lt;strong&gt;Steve: this is good stuff. I&#039;d done a thread linking to this post to attract more attention to your post. &lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spatial weigting is one of the main issues I have with the RegEM implementation in the antarctic.  The fact that the data are piled together into a matrix with no attempt to insure that a station on the west antarctic has as little effect as possible on the east antarctic makes my head hurt. There is also the problem of station density in a particular area.</p>
<p>Jeff C has regridded the Antarctic data according to proximity in an effort to reduce the dominance of high density stations over the rest of the reconstruction.  Just by reasonable regridding (still not taking the proximity to the reconstructed station into account) the AWS trend is cut in half!!</p>
<p><a href="http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/aws-gridded-reconstruction/" rel="nofollow">http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/aws-gridded-reconstruction/</a></p>
<p><strong>Steve: this is good stuff. I&#8217;d done a thread linking to this post to attract more attention to your post. </strong></p>
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		<title>By: John F. Pittman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176972</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John F. Pittman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 12:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The intuition behind is that we hope that the missing data
have little uncertainty given the incomplete data because the
EM algorithm implicitly assumes a strong relationship between
the missing data and the incomplete data.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
 http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~hli/paper/hli05rem.pdf I think we will get little traction from those using RegEM since this quote probably reflects what they do believe as scientists. However, a previous post had pointed out the problem with missing data not being random in many cases, but certain month(s). I see non-random data as a problem. Also, the spatial context must also have an assumed strong relationship for the paper&#039;s temporal-spatial validity. Wouldn&#039;t out of spatial samples (unused stations) be a way of testing this assumption of a strong relationship, and perhaps test the CI&#039;s as well?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The intuition behind is that we hope that the missing data<br />
have little uncertainty given the incomplete data because the<br />
EM algorithm implicitly assumes a strong relationship between<br />
the missing data and the incomplete data.</p></blockquote>
<p> <a href="http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~hli/paper/hli05rem.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~hli/paper/hli05rem.pdf</a> I think we will get little traction from those using RegEM since this quote probably reflects what they do believe as scientists. However, a previous post had pointed out the problem with missing data not being random in many cases, but certain month(s). I see non-random data as a problem. Also, the spatial context must also have an assumed strong relationship for the paper&#8217;s temporal-spatial validity. Wouldn&#8217;t out of spatial samples (unused stations) be a way of testing this assumption of a strong relationship, and perhaps test the CI&#8217;s as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-327721&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;davidc (#36)&lt;/a&gt;,

I&#039;ll defer to Steve if he disagrees with this, but to me there is almost a philosophical event, a &quot;paradigm shift&quot; to use the language of 20 years ago.

Most science is directed to the discovery of new knowledge and its confirmation. Most science seizes upon observations that are different to the expected. Some branches of science love data that vary over large spans in complicated ways. But much of what climate science does is &quot;homogenise&quot;. Seek the lowest denominator, discard the interesting variations on the theme. Play a monotone instead of a melody.

Another paradigm shift. In the past, if mistakes were made and discovered, the authors and helpers would seek what went wrong and why. Often this was by breaking up the bigger problem into bite-sized pieces, controlling as many variables as possible, then saying Eureka when a subset revealed the error. Climate people on the other hand commonly deny error and react by contriving hideously complicated models that have little chance of finding fundamental errors because they are poorly formulated originally.

When PCs were coming available for my geological fratenity in the early 80s, we encouraged data gatherers to still plot maps by hand, the old way, rather than just plug the numbers ito a package. Numbers take on a personality when you worry them enough. That can help you do a better job. But, to lump a huge mass into an amorphous machine and place your faith in a one-page printout - that is not science, that is becoming a servant of the machine.

It is for reasons like this that I dislike the brute force solution to the 4 colour map problem. It&#039;s not really proven, it&#039;s just shown very unlikely to be wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-327721" rel="nofollow">davidc (#36)</a>,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll defer to Steve if he disagrees with this, but to me there is almost a philosophical event, a &#8220;paradigm shift&#8221; to use the language of 20 years ago.</p>
<p>Most science is directed to the discovery of new knowledge and its confirmation. Most science seizes upon observations that are different to the expected. Some branches of science love data that vary over large spans in complicated ways. But much of what climate science does is &#8220;homogenise&#8221;. Seek the lowest denominator, discard the interesting variations on the theme. Play a monotone instead of a melody.</p>
<p>Another paradigm shift. In the past, if mistakes were made and discovered, the authors and helpers would seek what went wrong and why. Often this was by breaking up the bigger problem into bite-sized pieces, controlling as many variables as possible, then saying Eureka when a subset revealed the error. Climate people on the other hand commonly deny error and react by contriving hideously complicated models that have little chance of finding fundamental errors because they are poorly formulated originally.</p>
<p>When PCs were coming available for my geological fratenity in the early 80s, we encouraged data gatherers to still plot maps by hand, the old way, rather than just plug the numbers ito a package. Numbers take on a personality when you worry them enough. That can help you do a better job. But, to lump a huge mass into an amorphous machine and place your faith in a one-page printout &#8211; that is not science, that is becoming a servant of the machine.</p>
<p>It is for reasons like this that I dislike the brute force solution to the 4 colour map problem. It&#8217;s not really proven, it&#8217;s just shown very unlikely to be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: davidc</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/13/smerdon-et-al-2008-on-regem/#comment-176970</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[davidc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 06:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5226#comment-176970</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-327500&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Geoff Sherrington (#18)&lt;/a&gt;,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Forget the global average, handle sub-sets with which you can become intimate and start to understand them.

When you understand a few, then aggregate your knowledge. And again and again.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly. Then you won&#039;t use nonsense data like the Finnish sediment data that showed when the bridge was built. But my other point was that the problems start with the selection of a statistical model. Once you decide to use RegEM, or lots of similar methods, as I understand it you are pretty much obliged to infill. But if you used simpler methods you&#039;re not. If you analyse trends at individual locations missing data is not a problem. But if you were tempted to infill missing data at a single location and use data from other locations it would be pretty obvious that what you were doing was flawed. And if you felt you had to infill it would be obvious that the data at that location was inadequate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-327500" rel="nofollow">Geoff Sherrington (#18)</a>,</p>
<blockquote><p>Forget the global average, handle sub-sets with which you can become intimate and start to understand them.</p>
<p>When you understand a few, then aggregate your knowledge. And again and again.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly. Then you won&#8217;t use nonsense data like the Finnish sediment data that showed when the bridge was built. But my other point was that the problems start with the selection of a statistical model. Once you decide to use RegEM, or lots of similar methods, as I understand it you are pretty much obliged to infill. But if you used simpler methods you&#8217;re not. If you analyse trends at individual locations missing data is not a problem. But if you were tempted to infill missing data at a single location and use data from other locations it would be pretty obvious that what you were doing was flawed. And if you felt you had to infill it would be obvious that the data at that location was inadequate.</p>
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