<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Steig Eigenvectors and Chladni Patterns</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 19:02:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray Tomes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-242795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Tomes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2010 06:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-242795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have noticed these same patterns with principle components analysis of economic time series. If rate of change is used (first differences) then more meaningful results are generally obtained.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have noticed these same patterns with principle components analysis of economic time series. If rate of change is used (first differences) then more meaningful results are generally obtained.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kriging on a Geoid &#171; Climate Audit</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-240291</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kriging on a Geoid &#171; Climate Audit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-240291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Treering Network&#8221;, 3/22/08,  &#8220;Antarctic Spatial Autocorrelation #1&#8243;, 2/20/09, &#8220;Steig Eigenvectors and Chladni Patterns&#8221;, and follow-up [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Treering Network&#8221;, 3/22/08,  &#8220;Antarctic Spatial Autocorrelation #1&#8243;, 2/20/09, &#8220;Steig Eigenvectors and Chladni Patterns&#8221;, and follow-up [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alexander Harvey</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177844</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alexander Harvey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NeedleFactory,

The drum and Antarctica share two features:

Individual membrane elements tend to drag their neighbours up and down with them as may temperature elements.

The drum is constrained at the rim. Antarctica is constrained by the surrounding ocean. Temperature variability is likely to be least constrained away from the ocean.

Alex]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NeedleFactory,</p>
<p>The drum and Antarctica share two features:</p>
<p>Individual membrane elements tend to drag their neighbours up and down with them as may temperature elements.</p>
<p>The drum is constrained at the rim. Antarctica is constrained by the surrounding ocean. Temperature variability is likely to be least constrained away from the ocean.</p>
<p>Alex</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177843</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329414&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RomanM (#60)&lt;/a&gt;,
&lt;blockquote&gt;However, there can be a problem in those cases where the size of the value is related to the fact that it is missing - certainly a possibility in this case because the presence of clouds and the surface temperature can be related.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
.
While without further information we wouldn&#039;t know if the presence of clouds and surface temperature are strongly related (or, if they are, exactly how they are correlated), we can say with certainty that the cloud masking will preferentially affect certain geographical &lt;i&gt;locations&lt;/i&gt;:  namely West Antarctica and the coastlines.  Cloud cover is least over the plateau.  It may be entirely coincidental, but the areas in both the PCA and AVHRR recons that show the strongest warming from 1957-2006 are the areas with the most cloud cover . . . and, hence, the largest number of data points removed via masking.
.
I have not had any luck so far getting into GISMO at NSIDC (can&#039;t get the Java applet to work), but while we await Steig&#039;s processed data, I was going to start analyzing cloud cover in the same grid cell size as what Steig used over the same period and see if there is any actual correlation between cloud cover (and, by extension, missing data) and warming trend.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-329414" rel="nofollow">RomanM (#60)</a>,</p>
<blockquote><p>However, there can be a problem in those cases where the size of the value is related to the fact that it is missing &#8211; certainly a possibility in this case because the presence of clouds and the surface temperature can be related.</p></blockquote>
<p>.<br />
While without further information we wouldn&#8217;t know if the presence of clouds and surface temperature are strongly related (or, if they are, exactly how they are correlated), we can say with certainty that the cloud masking will preferentially affect certain geographical <i>locations</i>:  namely West Antarctica and the coastlines.  Cloud cover is least over the plateau.  It may be entirely coincidental, but the areas in both the PCA and AVHRR recons that show the strongest warming from 1957-2006 are the areas with the most cloud cover . . . and, hence, the largest number of data points removed via masking.<br />
.<br />
I have not had any luck so far getting into GISMO at NSIDC (can&#8217;t get the Java applet to work), but while we await Steig&#8217;s processed data, I was going to start analyzing cloud cover in the same grid cell size as what Steig used over the same period and see if there is any actual correlation between cloud cover (and, by extension, missing data) and warming trend.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops!  My bad.  That should be Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329400&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jeff Id (#59)&lt;/a&gt;, not 52.  I actually started to reply to Jeff in another thread, updated the threads to see what had transpired, and move the reply to this one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops!  My bad.  That should be Re: <a href="#comment-329400" rel="nofollow">Jeff Id (#59)</a>, not 52.  I actually started to reply to Jeff in another thread, updated the threads to see what had transpired, and move the reply to this one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177841</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329392&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jeff Id (#52)&lt;/a&gt;,

With all of the concurrent threads, it is hard to figure out where to post a comment.

The situation is pretty clear now.  The satellite data was reduced (presumably from a total of 300 x 5509 = 1,652,700 points) to just three PC series totalling 900 points to describe all of the variation in the monthly temperatures for the entire Antarctic continent for a 25 year period.  These 900 values were first stretched using  the partially-complete surface data to 1800 using RegEM and then to 3,305,400 values to draw the picture on the cover of Nature.

Was this successfully done?  I agree with you.  Until we can get to see at least the initial satellite values from which the three PCs were calculated, I don&#039;t think that there is much more that we can do in directly evaluating the quality of the reconstruction.


&lt;blockquote&gt;How do you calculate PC&#039;s with missing data from the cloud masking?? This is why I think we need the code and raw data for removing the cloud data.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are many possible ways (not all necessarily appropriate for a given situation) to infill the values.  Simple local geographic interpolation, &quot;climate&quot; using monthly means, and EM (without the Reg) which uses statistical relationships with all observed values to estimate the missing measurements are some possible methods.  If the number of infilled values is small compared to the entire data set, then the impact of the infilling of the PCs extracted could be relatively low.  However, there can be a problem in those cases where the size of the value is related to the fact that it is missing - certainly a possibility in this case because the presence of clouds and the surface temperature can be related.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-329392" rel="nofollow">Jeff Id (#52)</a>,</p>
<p>With all of the concurrent threads, it is hard to figure out where to post a comment.</p>
<p>The situation is pretty clear now.  The satellite data was reduced (presumably from a total of 300 x 5509 = 1,652,700 points) to just three PC series totalling 900 points to describe all of the variation in the monthly temperatures for the entire Antarctic continent for a 25 year period.  These 900 values were first stretched using  the partially-complete surface data to 1800 using RegEM and then to 3,305,400 values to draw the picture on the cover of Nature.</p>
<p>Was this successfully done?  I agree with you.  Until we can get to see at least the initial satellite values from which the three PCs were calculated, I don&#8217;t think that there is much more that we can do in directly evaluating the quality of the reconstruction.</p>
<blockquote><p>How do you calculate PC&#8217;s with missing data from the cloud masking?? This is why I think we need the code and raw data for removing the cloud data.</p></blockquote>
<p>There are many possible ways (not all necessarily appropriate for a given situation) to infill the values.  Simple local geographic interpolation, &#8220;climate&#8221; using monthly means, and EM (without the Reg) which uses statistical relationships with all observed values to estimate the missing measurements are some possible methods.  If the number of infilled values is small compared to the entire data set, then the impact of the infilling of the PCs extracted could be relatively low.  However, there can be a problem in those cases where the size of the value is related to the fact that it is missing &#8211; certainly a possibility in this case because the presence of clouds and the surface temperature can be related.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Id</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177840</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Id]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329323&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RomanM (#48)&lt;/a&gt;,

I didn&#039;t see the reply, these threads are long and complicated.   When you first found the 3 pcs I started thinking about how the covariance matrices are calculated and decided the same thing you did, it doesn&#039;t matter whether you use 3 or 5509 because it&#039;s the same information.

Since the weighting of the 3 pc&#039;s after 1982 doesn&#039;t include surfacestation info I used the same values to reconstruct the continent with JeffC&#039;s surface station info.

Anyway it would be very very slow to run 5509 series through the masher so 3 is fine and I also think this is what they did.


&lt;blockquote&gt;
I can&#039;t hazard a guess as to how they got these PCs. They could have been calculated by Dr. Steig and crew in an unmentioned step or they may have actually received the values already in that form. Who knows?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How do you calculate PC&#039;s with missing data from the cloud masking??  This is why I think we need the code and raw data for removing the cloud data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-329323" rel="nofollow">RomanM (#48)</a>,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t see the reply, these threads are long and complicated.   When you first found the 3 pcs I started thinking about how the covariance matrices are calculated and decided the same thing you did, it doesn&#8217;t matter whether you use 3 or 5509 because it&#8217;s the same information.</p>
<p>Since the weighting of the 3 pc&#8217;s after 1982 doesn&#8217;t include surfacestation info I used the same values to reconstruct the continent with JeffC&#8217;s surface station info.</p>
<p>Anyway it would be very very slow to run 5509 series through the masher so 3 is fine and I also think this is what they did.</p>
<blockquote><p>
I can&#8217;t hazard a guess as to how they got these PCs. They could have been calculated by Dr. Steig and crew in an unmentioned step or they may have actually received the values already in that form. Who knows?</p></blockquote>
<p>How do you calculate PC&#8217;s with missing data from the cloud masking??  This is why I think we need the code and raw data for removing the cloud data.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177839</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329388&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bernie (#57)&lt;/a&gt;,
Hopefully you are not asking me to explain why the southern annular mode behaves the way it does! What I am suggesting is that to the extent that SAM is a &quot;separable&quot; feature of earth&#039;s climate, so might the Steig PC that maps to it. The SAM is derived from pressure anomalies. It would make sense if temperature were related to pressure. I mean, that&#039;s how it works elsewhere in the world - SLPs and SSTs being closely related.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-329388" rel="nofollow">bernie (#57)</a>,<br />
Hopefully you are not asking me to explain why the southern annular mode behaves the way it does! What I am suggesting is that to the extent that SAM is a &#8220;separable&#8221; feature of earth&#8217;s climate, so might the Steig PC that maps to it. The SAM is derived from pressure anomalies. It would make sense if temperature were related to pressure. I mean, that&#8217;s how it works elsewhere in the world &#8211; SLPs and SSTs being closely related.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bernie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177838</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-329326&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bender (#49)&lt;/a&gt;, bender, kind heart that you are, what actual physical processes are Steig et al referring to and is Steig et al&#039;s
&lt;blockquote&gt;first principal component ... significantly correlated with the SAM index(?)&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The thoroughness and elegance of the statistical deconstruction is impressive -- what seems somewhat short changed in a discussion of the actual physical processes that might account for what Steig et al contend.  In short, does their interpretation of the physical meaning of their first 3 PCs make sense?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-329326" rel="nofollow">bender (#49)</a>, bender, kind heart that you are, what actual physical processes are Steig et al referring to and is Steig et al&#8217;s</p>
<blockquote><p>first principal component &#8230; significantly correlated with the SAM index(?)</p></blockquote>
<p>The thoroughness and elegance of the statistical deconstruction is impressive &#8212; what seems somewhat short changed in a discussion of the actual physical processes that might account for what Steig et al contend.  In short, does their interpretation of the physical meaning of their first 3 PCs make sense?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AnonyMoose</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/02/24/steig-eigenvectors-and-chladni-patterns/#comment-177837</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AnonyMoose]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5326#comment-177837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Looking at the 16 PCs, it&#039;s obvious that if you sum the values of the preceding PCs the differences are greatest at PC3.  With PC1+PC2+PC3 there is mostly reinforcement on either side of a 45 degree axis, BUT there is a bias toward positive (red) values in the center due to PC1&#039;s pattern.  From PC4 onward there are small patterns which break up the simple symmetry of the first three patterns.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the 16 PCs, it&#8217;s obvious that if you sum the values of the preceding PCs the differences are greatest at PC3.  With PC1+PC2+PC3 there is mostly reinforcement on either side of a 45 degree axis, BUT there is a bias toward positive (red) values in the center due to PC1&#8242;s pattern.  From PC4 onward there are small patterns which break up the simple symmetry of the first three patterns.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
