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	<title>Comments on: Beckers and Rixen 2003 &#8211; Another Infilling Approach</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff Id was kind enough to post an evaluation of the differences between RegEM TTLS, the standard truncated SVD a la Steve McI and Beckers/Rixen, the iterative TSVD method, and the eigenvector weighting method.

http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/tav-to-realclimate-you-can&#039;t-get-there-from-here/

Iterative and eigenvector weighting show substantial improvements in stability and accurately imputing withheld data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Id was kind enough to post an evaluation of the differences between RegEM TTLS, the standard truncated SVD a la Steve McI and Beckers/Rixen, the iterative TSVD method, and the eigenvector weighting method.</p>
<p><a href="http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/tav-to-realclimate-you-can&#039;t-get-there-from-here/" rel="nofollow">http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/tav-to-realclimate-you-can&#039;t-get-there-from-here/</a></p>
<p>Iterative and eigenvector weighting show substantial improvements in stability and accurately imputing withheld data.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-346731&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jean-Marie Beckers (#39)&lt;/a&gt;, Thank you very much.  I have sent an email to dineof@googlegroups.com.  The information concerning our implementation of a truncated SVD EM algorithm is contained in the .pdf attached to the email.
.
If others are interested, here&#039;s the .pdf:
.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/eczactfnzyw/Dr_Beckers.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-346731" rel="nofollow">Jean-Marie Beckers (#39)</a>, Thank you very much.  I have sent an email to <a href="mailto:dineof@googlegroups.com">dineof@googlegroups.com</a>.  The information concerning our implementation of a truncated SVD EM algorithm is contained in the .pdf attached to the email.<br />
.<br />
If others are interested, here&#8217;s the .pdf:<br />
.<br />
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/file/eczactfnzyw/Dr_Beckers.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.mediafire.com/file/eczactfnzyw/Dr_Beckers.pdf</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180789</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If Jeff C is still running around looking at stuff, I just realized something.  The % cloud cover graphs he posted &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-335158&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; are almost exactly proportional to the apparent offsets between the satellites.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Jeff C is still running around looking at stuff, I just realized something.  The % cloud cover graphs he posted <a href="#comment-335158" rel="nofollow">here</a> are almost exactly proportional to the apparent offsets between the satellites.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jean-Marie, I probably won&#039;t be able to chip in on this for a week or so, but will do so.  As I mentioned in the thread, at first blush, the E-M approach that you used seems more logical than RegEM. I corresponded briefly with Tapio Schneider about the reason for his much more long-winded algorithm and got what I regarded as an arm-waving answer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jean-Marie, I probably won&#8217;t be able to chip in on this for a week or so, but will do so.  As I mentioned in the thread, at first blush, the E-M approach that you used seems more logical than RegEM. I corresponded briefly with Tapio Schneider about the reason for his much more long-winded algorithm and got what I regarded as an arm-waving answer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jean-Marie Beckers</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jean-Marie Beckers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-346701&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan O (#37)&lt;/a&gt;,
Good to see that the discussion is still open. We would be happy to have at some moment your comments on comparisons with RegEM, specially on &quot;difficult cases&quot;.
Do not hesitate to contact us if you have questions, suggestions, test cases for comparisons etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-346701" rel="nofollow">Ryan O (#37)</a>,<br />
Good to see that the discussion is still open. We would be happy to have at some moment your comments on comparisons with RegEM, specially on &#8220;difficult cases&#8221;.<br />
Do not hesitate to contact us if you have questions, suggestions, test cases for comparisons etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Id</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180786</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Id]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 01:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180786</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-346256&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Beckers Jean-Marie (#36)&lt;/a&gt;,

My thanks as well.  It&#039;s fantastic to have the authors of these papers stop by from time to time.  From some of the work done on CA, I think the result from your method will be quite almost the same as RegEM on most datasets with substantially less computing time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-346256" rel="nofollow">Beckers Jean-Marie (#36)</a>,</p>
<p>My thanks as well.  It&#8217;s fantastic to have the authors of these papers stop by from time to time.  From some of the work done on CA, I think the result from your method will be quite almost the same as RegEM on most datasets with substantially less computing time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180785</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-346256&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Beckers Jean-Marie (#36)&lt;/a&gt;, Thanks for the additional references.  I may have a script and a description for you at some point if you have time to comment.  The method is similar, but not exactly the same.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-346256" rel="nofollow">Beckers Jean-Marie (#36)</a>, Thanks for the additional references.  I may have a script and a description for you at some point if you have time to comment.  The method is similar, but not exactly the same.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Beckers Jean-Marie</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180784</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beckers Jean-Marie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi everyone,

I just came across your discussions on our paper

&lt;a href=&quot;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4291&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4291&lt;/a&gt;

and would like to take the opportunity to respond to some of your questions/comments.

Our method always assumes that clouds are correctly masked (so whether clouds are colder or warmer is a question for the groups that provide the masks). Systematic errors here will always affect the reconstruction and probably lead to cold bias for cold clouds incorrectly masked. To help the user, we are currently testing a posteriori quality control for each pixel and firsts results are promising in the sense that undetected haze and cloud edges are automatically flagged and can be masked for a second filling iteration.

Whether our method is more “true” than the RegEM approach cannot be proven in general but can be tested in each case, for example setting aside some data under artificial clouds and then calculating the reconstruction errors for both methods there (as suggested by Nicholas). Hopefully both methods provide similar results, otherwise  it means that there are not enough data constraints available to fill in clouds. In fact this artificial cloud approach is used in our method to optimise the number of PC to retain and provides also a global error estimate for the reconstruction.

For the regions with almost permanent cloud coverage, our method will never provide a reasonable reconstruction, because there is no a priori spatial covariance function defined. Hence the method has to derive the spatial covariance from the data themselves, which is not possible if there are insufficient data in one location. This is why we apply a “land” mask also in points with a too large cloud coverage in time. In other words, the filling can only be done in places where there is sufficiently statistical evidence that allows to infer values there knowing observations in other locations and other moments.

Since the 2003 paper we added a fundamental tool to the reconstruction itself, the associated error field.   There interesting point here is that, as expected, under clouds the errors are larger than elsewhere, but depending on the PC structures, some locations are better constrained than others for the filling.

Specially the error fields are of importance when dealing with the computation of spatial averages for detecting trends, as the imputation error influences the mean values and the standard error on the mean.
See for example our discussion in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.html&lt;/a&gt; which seems important for the case you discuss here; ie detecting weak temporal trends in spatial averages, themselves depending on errors in the interpolation. The most critical part here is that errors might be spatially correlated which has a strong influence on the error on the spatial average and hence the confidence you can have on the trends.


For further understanding and reading on our method, from the original 2003 version it was later optimised for efficient use of Arpack library

&lt;a href=&quot;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4296&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4296&lt;/a&gt;

and later extended with error estimates

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

and multivariate approaches

&lt;a href=&quot;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/9485&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://hdl.handle.net/2268/9485&lt;/a&gt;

The code itself and documentation is available

&lt;a href=&quot;http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/DINEOF-welcome.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/DINEOF-welcome.html&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/mediawiki/index.php/DINEOF-_User_guide&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/mediawiki/index.php/DINEOF-_User_guide&lt;/a&gt;

Also do not hesitate to contact us for the questions and possibly a comparison with other methods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone,</p>
<p>I just came across your discussions on our paper</p>
<p><a href="http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4291" rel="nofollow">http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4291</a></p>
<p>and would like to take the opportunity to respond to some of your questions/comments.</p>
<p>Our method always assumes that clouds are correctly masked (so whether clouds are colder or warmer is a question for the groups that provide the masks). Systematic errors here will always affect the reconstruction and probably lead to cold bias for cold clouds incorrectly masked. To help the user, we are currently testing a posteriori quality control for each pixel and firsts results are promising in the sense that undetected haze and cloud edges are automatically flagged and can be masked for a second filling iteration.</p>
<p>Whether our method is more “true” than the RegEM approach cannot be proven in general but can be tested in each case, for example setting aside some data under artificial clouds and then calculating the reconstruction errors for both methods there (as suggested by Nicholas). Hopefully both methods provide similar results, otherwise  it means that there are not enough data constraints available to fill in clouds. In fact this artificial cloud approach is used in our method to optimise the number of PC to retain and provides also a global error estimate for the reconstruction.</p>
<p>For the regions with almost permanent cloud coverage, our method will never provide a reasonable reconstruction, because there is no a priori spatial covariance function defined. Hence the method has to derive the spatial covariance from the data themselves, which is not possible if there are insufficient data in one location. This is why we apply a “land” mask also in points with a too large cloud coverage in time. In other words, the filling can only be done in places where there is sufficiently statistical evidence that allows to infer values there knowing observations in other locations and other moments.</p>
<p>Since the 2003 paper we added a fundamental tool to the reconstruction itself, the associated error field.   There interesting point here is that, as expected, under clouds the errors are larger than elsewhere, but depending on the PC structures, some locations are better constrained than others for the filling.</p>
<p>Specially the error fields are of importance when dealing with the computation of spatial averages for detecting trends, as the imputation error influences the mean values and the standard error on the mean.<br />
See for example our discussion in <a href="http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.html</a> which seems important for the case you discuss here; ie detecting weak temporal trends in spatial averages, themselves depending on errors in the interpolation. The most critical part here is that errors might be spatially correlated which has a strong influence on the error on the spatial average and hence the confidence you can have on the trends.</p>
<p>For further understanding and reading on our method, from the original 2003 version it was later optimised for efficient use of Arpack library</p>
<p><a href="http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4296" rel="nofollow">http://hdl.handle.net/2268/4296</a></p>
<p>and later extended with error estimates</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ocean-sci.net/2/183/2006/os-2-183-2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>and multivariate approaches</p>
<p><a href="http://hdl.handle.net/2268/9485" rel="nofollow">http://hdl.handle.net/2268/9485</a></p>
<p>The code itself and documentation is available</p>
<p><a href="http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/DINEOF-welcome.html" rel="nofollow">http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/DINEOF-welcome.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/mediawiki/index.php/DINEOF-_User_guide" rel="nofollow">http://ocgmod2.marine.usf.edu/mediawiki/index.php/DINEOF-_User_guide</a></p>
<p>Also do not hesitate to contact us for the questions and possibly a comparison with other methods.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-335939&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Layman Lurker (#30)&lt;/a&gt;,

&lt;blockquote&gt;The results show that the cloud-free only monthly average is colder than the true monthly average by about 0.3°C with a standard deviation of about 0.6°C during summer and 0.5°C with a standard deviation of 1.5°C during the winter.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You probably are going to obtain more information by doing the station by station differences.  The information provided from Cosimo above is not sufficient, for example, to determine a standard error -  without some big assumptions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-335939" rel="nofollow">Layman Lurker (#30)</a>,</p>
<blockquote><p>The results show that the cloud-free only monthly average is colder than the true monthly average by about 0.3°C with a standard deviation of about 0.6°C during summer and 0.5°C with a standard deviation of 1.5°C during the winter.</p></blockquote>
<p>You probably are going to obtain more information by doing the station by station differences.  The information provided from Cosimo above is not sufficient, for example, to determine a standard error &#8211;  without some big assumptions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/03/28/beckers-and-rixen-2003-another-infilling-approach/#comment-180782</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5574#comment-180782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW . . . NOAA-16&#039;s problems are NOT cloud-masking related.  NOAA-16&#039;s AVHRR instrument with the split Channel 3 is much much much &lt;i&gt;better&lt;/i&gt; at allowing cloud masking than previous AVHRR instruments.  The &quot;change&quot; in cloud patterns doesn&#039;t indicate a problem with NOAA-16; it simply shows how poor the CASPR algorithm works on Version 1/2 data.
.
NOAA-16&#039;s problems are with the scan motor, which leads to intermittent misidentification of geographical location during a scan.
.
So NOAA-16 gets +1 point for better masking . . . but -1 point for a crappy scan motor.  :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW . . . NOAA-16&#8242;s problems are NOT cloud-masking related.  NOAA-16&#8242;s AVHRR instrument with the split Channel 3 is much much much <i>better</i> at allowing cloud masking than previous AVHRR instruments.  The &#8220;change&#8221; in cloud patterns doesn&#8217;t indicate a problem with NOAA-16; it simply shows how poor the CASPR algorithm works on Version 1/2 data.<br />
.<br />
NOAA-16&#8242;s problems are with the scan motor, which leads to intermittent misidentification of geographical location during a scan.<br />
.<br />
So NOAA-16 gets +1 point for better masking . . . but -1 point for a crappy scan motor.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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