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	<title>Comments on: Ryan&#8217;s Tiles</title>
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	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Met Office&#8217;s Supercomputer consumes the power of 700 Ferraris &#171; Manicbeancounter&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Met Office&#8217;s Supercomputer consumes the power of 700 Ferraris &#171; Manicbeancounter&#8217;s Weblog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] such as on July 2009 seas surface temperatures; recent Antarctic warming (or the full detail here);  the failure of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to collapse; or claims of the imminent [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] such as on July 2009 seas surface temperatures; recent Antarctic warming (or the full detail here);  the failure of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to collapse; or claims of the imminent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Tiles Climate Audit &#124; Joint Pain Relief</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Tiles Climate Audit &#124; Joint Pain Relief]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Ryan Tiles Climate Audit   Posted by root 35 minutes ago (http://www.climateaudit.org)        Martin manning had sent an instruction to reviewers in a pdf file dated 1 july 06 saying and he 39 d probably be right a joint paper from yourself ryan o amp 2xjeffs on better watch out about the comment to nature they 39 re liable to say that it been too        Discuss&#160;  &#124;&#160; Bury &#124;&#160;    News &#124; Ryan Tiles Climate Audit [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ryan Tiles Climate Audit   Posted by root 35 minutes ago (<a href="http://www.climateaudit.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.climateaudit.org</a>)        Martin manning had sent an instruction to reviewers in a pdf file dated 1 july 06 saying and he 39 d probably be right a joint paper from yourself ryan o amp 2xjeffs on better watch out about the comment to nature they 39 re liable to say that it been too        Discuss&nbsp;  |&nbsp; Bury |&nbsp;    News | Ryan Tiles Climate Audit [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John S.</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 22:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-342796&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mike Bryant (#26)&lt;/a&gt;,

You&#039;re right.  Data decomposition and reconstruction by principal components goes badly awry whenever the premises of the Karhunen-Loeve expansion, which underlies all PC methods, are  forgotten.  The most fundamental premise is some well-defined spatio-temporal frame over which there are multiple data sets.  The whole purpose of the KH expansion was to reduce these data sets to more economical, more-easily intelligible metrics.

It is one thing to obtain the natural eigenmodes of tidal oscillation of some basin such as the Black Sea from partially incomplete data.  It is quite another to try to determine the temperature record throughout Antartica, which is not spatially homogeneous, has no natural time frame apart from the diurnal and annual, and lacks adequate data, to begin with.  Sadly, the mistaken idea that PC methods cure all data deficiencies has taken hold in some quarters and often leads to the travesty of highly arbitrary results so clearly displayed by Ryan&#039;s tiles.

Whenever  PCs are used as a time-series analysis tool over time-frames that are not naturally defined, it should arouse the suspicion that someone is trying to claim more information than is truly available in the data.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-342796" rel="nofollow">Mike Bryant (#26)</a>,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right.  Data decomposition and reconstruction by principal components goes badly awry whenever the premises of the Karhunen-Loeve expansion, which underlies all PC methods, are  forgotten.  The most fundamental premise is some well-defined spatio-temporal frame over which there are multiple data sets.  The whole purpose of the KH expansion was to reduce these data sets to more economical, more-easily intelligible metrics.</p>
<p>It is one thing to obtain the natural eigenmodes of tidal oscillation of some basin such as the Black Sea from partially incomplete data.  It is quite another to try to determine the temperature record throughout Antartica, which is not spatially homogeneous, has no natural time frame apart from the diurnal and annual, and lacks adequate data, to begin with.  Sadly, the mistaken idea that PC methods cure all data deficiencies has taken hold in some quarters and often leads to the travesty of highly arbitrary results so clearly displayed by Ryan&#8217;s tiles.</p>
<p>Whenever  PCs are used as a time-series analysis tool over time-frames that are not naturally defined, it should arouse the suspicion that someone is trying to claim more information than is truly available in the data.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bryant</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bryant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 04:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a thank you to the statisticians here for helping a plumber understand that PCs and regpars can make data say whatever you want it to. Why can a plumber understand this simple truth and the preeminent climate scientists and scientific journals cannot?
Thanks,
Mike Bryant
PS Climate Scientists should be ashamed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a thank you to the statisticians here for helping a plumber understand that PCs and regpars can make data say whatever you want it to. Why can a plumber understand this simple truth and the preeminent climate scientists and scientific journals cannot?<br />
Thanks,<br />
Mike Bryant<br />
PS Climate Scientists should be ashamed.</p>
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		<title>By: henry</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 02:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Better watch out about the comment to &lt;em&gt;Nature&lt;/em&gt;: they&#039;re liable to say that it&#039;s been too long for this to be considered.

It&#039;s getting to where a new variation of Climate Science is being born, that of Statistical Climate Sciences.  It&#039;s being proven, again and again, that the choice of PC&#039;s and regpars have an effect on the results, causing drastic changes with the same data being used.

Considering that the &quot;Team&quot; has stated they&#039;re not statisticians, and have refused help from mainstream statisticians, then some statisticians need to step forward and post articles in their OWN peer-reviewed journals.  They&#039;re not being heard in the &quot;climate&quot; journals...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Better watch out about the comment to <em>Nature</em>: they&#8217;re liable to say that it&#8217;s been too long for this to be considered.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s getting to where a new variation of Climate Science is being born, that of Statistical Climate Sciences.  It&#8217;s being proven, again and again, that the choice of PC&#8217;s and regpars have an effect on the results, causing drastic changes with the same data being used.</p>
<p>Considering that the &#8220;Team&#8221; has stated they&#8217;re not statisticians, and have refused help from mainstream statisticians, then some statisticians need to step forward and post articles in their OWN peer-reviewed journals.  They&#8217;re not being heard in the &#8220;climate&#8221; journals&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: hunter</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hunter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 21:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andy Warhol would have been fascinated by this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/scapegrace/projects/marilyn2JPG.jpg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy Warhol would have been fascinated by this.<br />
<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/scapegrace/projects/marilyn2JPG.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/scapegrace/projects/marilyn2JPG.jpg</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mugwump</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mugwump]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 16:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-342733&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Adam Gallon (#20)&lt;/a&gt;, A comment to Nature would certainly seem appropriate. Doesn&#039;t need to be snarky (guaranteed not to get published if it is). Just point out that the trend (and spatial trend patterns) depend critically on the choice of algorithm parameters, and that Steig&#039;s justification for their choice is probably invalid: the first three principal components are likely just to be Chladni patterns, not &quot;important dynamical features of high-latitude Southern Hemisphere atmospheric circulation&quot;. Throw in a few pretty tiles and it would be a compelling counter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-342733" rel="nofollow">Adam Gallon (#20)</a>, A comment to Nature would certainly seem appropriate. Doesn&#8217;t need to be snarky (guaranteed not to get published if it is). Just point out that the trend (and spatial trend patterns) depend critically on the choice of algorithm parameters, and that Steig&#8217;s justification for their choice is probably invalid: the first three principal components are likely just to be Chladni patterns, not &#8220;important dynamical features of high-latitude Southern Hemisphere atmospheric circulation&#8221;. Throw in a few pretty tiles and it would be a compelling counter.</p>
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		<title>By: Sonicfrog</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sonicfrog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is it me, or do those tile look very Andy Worhol-ish?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it me, or do those tile look very Andy Worhol-ish?</p>
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		<title>By: Page Charges The Problem. Can you suggest a solution? &#124; The Blackboard</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183978</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Page Charges The Problem. Can you suggest a solution? &#124; The Blackboard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Written by: lucia var addthis_pub=&quot;4a117063171aab5f&quot;;    How many readers love the idea of RyanO and the two Jeffs assembling their analyses to submit a comment to Nature? How many love the notion of me assembling [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Written by: lucia var addthis_pub=&#8221;4a117063171aab5f&#8221;;    How many readers love the idea of RyanO and the two Jeffs assembling their analyses to submit a comment to Nature? How many love the notion of me assembling [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Gallon</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/05/24/ryans-tiles/#comment-183977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Gallon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 13:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6077#comment-183977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m amazed that &quot;TCO&quot; has popped up with his usual &quot;Publish&quot; statement now.
And he&#039;d probably be right, a joint paper from yourself, Ryan O &amp; 2xJeffs on the issues surrounding the use of these nifty mathematical doo-dahs, with Steig et al as an &quot;example&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m amazed that &#8220;TCO&#8221; has popped up with his usual &#8220;Publish&#8221; statement now.<br />
And he&#8217;d probably be right, a joint paper from yourself, Ryan O &amp; 2xJeffs on the issues surrounding the use of these nifty mathematical doo-dahs, with Steig et al as an &#8220;example&#8221;.</p>
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