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	<title>Comments on: Steig&#8217;s &#8220;Tutorial&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Smith 2010: Elementary Reconstruction of the Hockey Stick Curve &#171; The Whiteboard</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-243256</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Smith 2010: Elementary Reconstruction of the Hockey Stick Curve &#171; The Whiteboard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 03:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-243256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] A Challenge to Tamino: MBH PC Retention Rules (Mar 14, 2008) Gavin and the PC Stories (Mar 3, 2009) Steig&#8217;s &#8220;Tutorial&#8221; (Jun 2, 2009 ) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Tamino v. Montford – A [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Challenge to Tamino: MBH PC Retention Rules (Mar 14, 2008) Gavin and the PC Stories (Mar 3, 2009) Steig&#8217;s &#8220;Tutorial&#8221; (Jun 2, 2009 ) Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Tamino v. Montford – A [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343989&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;D. Patterson (#47)&lt;/a&gt;, Actually, #48 pretty much answered that question.  I believe Steve M has several good expositions on this relative to both his MBH work and what he&#039;s done with Steig.  The simple answer is that the extracted modes are unlikely to be interpretable as physical processes.  The modes simply explain, in order of most to least, the amount of variation in the original data set.  The more you extract, the greater geographic resolution you have (and, also, the more noise you include).  There&#039;s always a tradeoff, but in this case - where the idea is to simply reduce the AVHRR set to a reasonable size for computation - the only penalty for extracting too many is that your computer runs longer before returning an answer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343989" rel="nofollow">D. Patterson (#47)</a>, Actually, #48 pretty much answered that question.  I believe Steve M has several good expositions on this relative to both his MBH work and what he&#8217;s done with Steig.  The simple answer is that the extracted modes are unlikely to be interpretable as physical processes.  The modes simply explain, in order of most to least, the amount of variation in the original data set.  The more you extract, the greater geographic resolution you have (and, also, the more noise you include).  There&#8217;s always a tradeoff, but in this case &#8211; where the idea is to simply reduce the AVHRR set to a reasonable size for computation &#8211; the only penalty for extracting too many is that your computer runs longer before returning an answer.</p>
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		<title>By: JS</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184421</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343971&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (#43)&lt;/a&gt;,
If that was truly your interest principle components would not be my first thought; it would be frequency domain analysis where you chop off the higher frequency components. There at least what you pull out has a meaningful interpretation that is robust (although only with infinite data if you want to be techincal!). The first principle component is just an orthogonal component that has the greatest weight. It is not fixed a priori and you can choose multiple rotations of your basis that affects the results. PCs have no inherent meaning and arguments about what they actually are never seem to rise above hand-waving in these contexts. (In engineering and experimental sciences you have a chance of attaching robust meaning to a PC, but in others the chance seems vanishingly small.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343971" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (#43)</a>,<br />
If that was truly your interest principle components would not be my first thought; it would be frequency domain analysis where you chop off the higher frequency components. There at least what you pull out has a meaningful interpretation that is robust (although only with infinite data if you want to be techincal!). The first principle component is just an orthogonal component that has the greatest weight. It is not fixed a priori and you can choose multiple rotations of your basis that affects the results. PCs have no inherent meaning and arguments about what they actually are never seem to rise above hand-waving in these contexts. (In engineering and experimental sciences you have a chance of attaching robust meaning to a PC, but in others the chance seems vanishingly small.)</p>
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		<title>By: D. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343983&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan O (#45)&lt;/a&gt;,

&lt;blockquote&gt;If you are attempting to obtain an overall trend for the continent&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Given the fact Antarctica has significantly different climate zones with divergent climate trends, doesn&#039;t Steig&#039;s methods and/or PCA of any number give inherently incorrect results? Don&#039;t the climate zones need to be classed with a k-PCA at a minimum, with special handling to prevent the low variability and the small number of interior Antarctic sites being disregarded in the transformations?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343983" rel="nofollow">Ryan O (#45)</a>,</p>
<blockquote><p>If you are attempting to obtain an overall trend for the continent</p></blockquote>
<p>Given the fact Antarctica has significantly different climate zones with divergent climate trends, doesn&#8217;t Steig&#8217;s methods and/or PCA of any number give inherently incorrect results? Don&#8217;t the climate zones need to be classed with a k-PCA at a minimum, with special handling to prevent the low variability and the small number of interior Antarctic sites being disregarded in the transformations?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184419</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343983&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan O (#45)&lt;/a&gt;,  Yep, we obviously dont disagree on this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343983" rel="nofollow">Ryan O (#45)</a>,  Yep, we obviously dont disagree on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan O</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184418</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan O]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184418</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343980&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Michael Jankowski (#44)&lt;/a&gt; and Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343971&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (#43)&lt;/a&gt;,
.
The answer to that depends on what you are trying to do.  If you are attempting to obtain an overall trend for the continent, 1 PC may work quite well.  If you are attempting to obtain geographic information about temperature, 1 PC does not provide the needed resolution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343980" rel="nofollow">Michael Jankowski (#44)</a> and Re: <a href="#comment-343971" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (#43)</a>,<br />
.<br />
The answer to that depends on what you are trying to do.  If you are attempting to obtain an overall trend for the continent, 1 PC may work quite well.  If you are attempting to obtain geographic information about temperature, 1 PC does not provide the needed resolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Jankowski</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184417</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Jankowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343971&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (#43)&lt;/a&gt;, In the case of satellite data, it sure looks like a case could be made that PC1 is where the analysis should stop.  Whether that means to truly just use PC1 or if PCA should just be avoided for this type of instance altogether, I don&#039;t know.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343971" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (#43)</a>, In the case of satellite data, it sure looks like a case could be made that PC1 is where the analysis should stop.  Whether that means to truly just use PC1 or if PCA should just be avoided for this type of instance altogether, I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s also not the case that more PCs is necessarily &quot;deeper&quot;.  I&#039;m not absolutely sold on the idea that going past 1 PC is a good idea. If our ultimate interest is an Antarctic trend, then the statistical model is more less T+noise - and for that sort of model, something that&#039;s more like an average or a PC1 might well be better than starting down the lower PCs.

But if you use lower order PCs, then surely Steig should have considered relevant literature like Smith et al 1996, which warns against the precise situation that occurs. Smith et al 1996 is even cited by coauthor Mann in MBH98 and Smith&#039;s methods are discussed at length in Schneider 2001. This is not an esoteric reference. It&#039;s the sort of thing that maybe he should discuss in his classes on PCS.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also not the case that more PCs is necessarily &#8220;deeper&#8221;.  I&#8217;m not absolutely sold on the idea that going past 1 PC is a good idea. If our ultimate interest is an Antarctic trend, then the statistical model is more less T+noise &#8211; and for that sort of model, something that&#8217;s more like an average or a PC1 might well be better than starting down the lower PCs.</p>
<p>But if you use lower order PCs, then surely Steig should have considered relevant literature like Smith et al 1996, which warns against the precise situation that occurs. Smith et al 1996 is even cited by coauthor Mann in MBH98 and Smith&#8217;s methods are discussed at length in Schneider 2001. This is not an esoteric reference. It&#8217;s the sort of thing that maybe he should discuss in his classes on PCS.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343943&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;AnonyMoose (#41)&lt;/a&gt;,

I&#039;m not so sure that Smith&#039;s SST data for the 19th century is any better than Antarctic station data in the 1960s. I&#039;d be surprised if it was. The enterprises are similar.

Steig promoted his calculation &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090121144049.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;as follows:&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&quot;People were calculating with their heads instead of actually doing the math,&quot; Steig said. &quot;What we did is interpolate carefully instead of just using the back of an envelope. While other interpolations had been done previously, no one had really taken advantage of the satellite data, which provide crucial information about spatial patterns of temperature change.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And you say that his calculation is OK for the &quot;back of the envelope&quot;. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343943" rel="nofollow">AnonyMoose (#41)</a>,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure that Smith&#8217;s SST data for the 19th century is any better than Antarctic station data in the 1960s. I&#8217;d be surprised if it was. The enterprises are similar.</p>
<p>Steig promoted his calculation <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090121144049.htm" rel="nofollow">as follows:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;People were calculating with their heads instead of actually doing the math,&#8221; Steig said. &#8220;What we did is interpolate carefully instead of just using the back of an envelope. While other interpolations had been done previously, no one had really taken advantage of the satellite data, which provide crucial information about spatial patterns of temperature change.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>And you say that his calculation is OK for the &#8220;back of the envelope&#8221;. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: AnonyMoose</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/02/does-steig-understand-north-et-al-1982/#comment-184414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AnonyMoose]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6164#comment-184414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-343867&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (#22)&lt;/a&gt;,
So by claiming that North promotes a few-PC statistical cutoff point, Steig is ignoring deeper analysis?  Smith went to the trouble of comparing various PCA against observations, in Smith&#039;s case many regional comparisons in order to find which PCs in each region contain the regional signals.  It&#039;s possible that by treating the continent as a single region, Steig&#039;s first 3 PCs are driven by something less relevant to temperatures than is relevant.  If Steig had applied Smith&#039;s regional analysis, he might have been able to create better regional approximations.  So he might be using something affected by barometric pressure at the higher continental altitudes, and smearing peninsula temperatures across the entire continent instead of limiting the proper peninsula patterns to the peninsula.

Admittedly, Steig has to deal with having much less data and many fewer locations than Smith et al did.  For a back-of-the-envelope estimate, what Steig did is reasonable.  But because the rough estimate doesn&#039;t show dramatically different results, it shouldn&#039;t have been published and something more detailed should have been done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-343867" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (#22)</a>,<br />
So by claiming that North promotes a few-PC statistical cutoff point, Steig is ignoring deeper analysis?  Smith went to the trouble of comparing various PCA against observations, in Smith&#8217;s case many regional comparisons in order to find which PCs in each region contain the regional signals.  It&#8217;s possible that by treating the continent as a single region, Steig&#8217;s first 3 PCs are driven by something less relevant to temperatures than is relevant.  If Steig had applied Smith&#8217;s regional analysis, he might have been able to create better regional approximations.  So he might be using something affected by barometric pressure at the higher continental altitudes, and smearing peninsula temperatures across the entire continent instead of limiting the proper peninsula patterns to the peninsula.</p>
<p>Admittedly, Steig has to deal with having much less data and many fewer locations than Smith et al did.  For a back-of-the-envelope estimate, what Steig did is reasonable.  But because the rough estimate doesn&#8217;t show dramatically different results, it shouldn&#8217;t have been published and something more detailed should have been done.</p>
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