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	<title>Comments on: Increased Atlantic hurricane landfalls from a new form of El Nino?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[After my first read of the McClean paper and from a layperson&#039;s point of view, I thought the paper was off to a good start with Figure 1 showing the 12 month MA for SOI and GTTA.

Unfortunately, from there I think the authors went on an ill-advised over fitting expedition in order to make their models look better and explain more of the variance with the R^2 inflation.  They played the volcano effects and lag and the temperature lags with little or no a prior reasoning for their actions.

I am guessing here and I need to read the paper again, but when one puts a model together like in this case and without regard to the dangers of over fitting and one gets a good fit it is difficult for the over fitter to understand how easy it can be to manipulate data to show something that might well not hold up out-of-sample.

Again as a layperson with one read of the paper I would have thought the authors would have better proceeded by simply explaining with a principled argument the data presented in Figure 1.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After my first read of the McClean paper and from a layperson&#8217;s point of view, I thought the paper was off to a good start with Figure 1 showing the 12 month MA for SOI and GTTA.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, from there I think the authors went on an ill-advised over fitting expedition in order to make their models look better and explain more of the variance with the R^2 inflation.  They played the volcano effects and lag and the temperature lags with little or no a prior reasoning for their actions.</p>
<p>I am guessing here and I need to read the paper again, but when one puts a model together like in this case and without regard to the dangers of over fitting and one gets a good fit it is difficult for the over fitter to understand how easy it can be to manipulate data to show something that might well not hold up out-of-sample.</p>
<p>Again as a layperson with one read of the paper I would have thought the authors would have better proceeded by simply explaining with a principled argument the data presented in Figure 1.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Brim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186912</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Brim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350105&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan Maue (#102)&lt;/a&gt;
Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350161&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RomanM (#107)&lt;/a&gt;

It is quite evident that a thorough audit of the McClean et al. (2009) paper -- done in the same way as the audit CA-et-al did of the Steig Antarctica paper -- would be most useful in constructively critiquing the McClean paper&#039;s conclusions and in establishing the paper&#039;s overall defensibility, or possible lack thereof, as the case may be.  Lucia has started the auditing process over on her own blog with critical comments that echo some of the ones we see here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350105" rel="nofollow">Ryan Maue (#102)</a><br />
Re: <a href="#comment-350161" rel="nofollow">RomanM (#107)</a></p>
<p>It is quite evident that a thorough audit of the McClean et al. (2009) paper &#8212; done in the same way as the audit CA-et-al did of the Steig Antarctica paper &#8212; would be most useful in constructively critiquing the McClean paper&#8217;s conclusions and in establishing the paper&#8217;s overall defensibility, or possible lack thereof, as the case may be.  Lucia has started the auditing process over on her own blog with critical comments that echo some of the ones we see here.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Maue</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186911</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Maue]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 02:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186911</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350796&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Philip Machanick (#108)&lt;/a&gt;, exactly why it should have been in Nature or Science -- no need to worry about those pesky assumptions.  That&#039;s what the press release is for.

(C   H    E [tongue]   E   K)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350796" rel="nofollow">Philip Machanick (#108)</a>, exactly why it should have been in Nature or Science &#8212; no need to worry about those pesky assumptions.  That&#8217;s what the press release is for.</p>
<p>(C   H    E [tongue]   E   K)</p>
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		<title>By: jc-at-play</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186910</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jc-at-play]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350796&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Philip Machanick (#108)&lt;/a&gt;.

Careful.  Taking the derivative doesn&#039;t exactly &quot;remove&quot; a linear trend. Rather it transforms a linear function into a constant function, whose constant value shows the strength of the trend.

OTOH, unless I missed something, their study can only justify the conclusion that the &lt;em&gt;derivative of &lt;/em&gt; the Southern Oscillation is a &quot;dominant and consistent influence&quot; on the &lt;em&gt;derivative of&lt;/em&gt; mean global temperature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350796" rel="nofollow">Philip Machanick (#108)</a>.</p>
<p>Careful.  Taking the derivative doesn&#8217;t exactly &#8220;remove&#8221; a linear trend. Rather it transforms a linear function into a constant function, whose constant value shows the strength of the trend.</p>
<p>OTOH, unless I missed something, their study can only justify the conclusion that the <em>derivative of </em> the Southern Oscillation is a &#8220;dominant and consistent influence&#8221; on the <em>derivative of</em> mean global temperature.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Machanick</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186909</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip Machanick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Before you get too excited, in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/mclean_defreitas_carter_jgr_2009.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;paper&lt;/a&gt; they tell us: &quot;To remove the noise, the absolute values were replaced with derivative values based on variations. Here the derivative is the 12-month running average subtracted from the same average for data 12 months later.&quot;

The effect of this is to remove any linear trend. We know CO2 has been increasing approximately exponentially over the period of their data, which, according to the theory of climate sensitivity to greenhouse gas increases, should result in a linear increase in temperatures.

By eliminating any linear trends from the time series, all they&#039;ve done is emphasise the effect of ENSO, already known to be the major influence on short-term variation. Their conclusion that &quot;The findings presented here are consistent with the Southern Oscillation being a major driver of temperature anomalies,&quot; is certainly not supported by their analysis.

They lucked out on scoring referees who&#039;d dozed off during the first week of Calculus 101 :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before you get too excited, in the <a href="http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/mclean_defreitas_carter_jgr_2009.pdf" rel="nofollow">paper</a> they tell us: &#8220;To remove the noise, the absolute values were replaced with derivative values based on variations. Here the derivative is the 12-month running average subtracted from the same average for data 12 months later.&#8221;</p>
<p>The effect of this is to remove any linear trend. We know CO2 has been increasing approximately exponentially over the period of their data, which, according to the theory of climate sensitivity to greenhouse gas increases, should result in a linear increase in temperatures.</p>
<p>By eliminating any linear trends from the time series, all they&#8217;ve done is emphasise the effect of ENSO, already known to be the major influence on short-term variation. Their conclusion that &#8220;The findings presented here are consistent with the Southern Oscillation being a major driver of temperature anomalies,&#8221; is certainly not supported by their analysis.</p>
<p>They lucked out on scoring referees who&#8217;d dozed off during the first week of Calculus 101 <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186908</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186908</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My comment was meant in a humourous vein.

I haven&#039;t read the paper thoroughly, but I must admit that the first sentence in the Analysis and Results section gave me some pause: &quot;We start by considering 12-month running averages of our data.&quot;  There seems to be widespread use of correlations later in the paper and I think that prior smoothing could make interpretation of results considerably more difficult.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment was meant in a humourous vein.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the paper thoroughly, but I must admit that the first sentence in the Analysis and Results section gave me some pause: &#8220;We start by considering 12-month running averages of our data.&#8221;  There seems to be widespread use of correlations later in the paper and I think that prior smoothing could make interpretation of results considerably more difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: ryanm</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186907</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ryanm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350128&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RomanM (#105)&lt;/a&gt;, this paper is a must-read.  Should have been in Science or Nature.  The data is easily downloadable, the methodology well explained, and the conclusions fundamental.  Unfortunately, when you do a Google News search for El Nino or Southern Oscillation, all you come up with is Kim et al. (2009), which is a direct result of the very aggressive sales pitching by the Science journal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350128" rel="nofollow">RomanM (#105)</a>, this paper is a must-read.  Should have been in Science or Nature.  The data is easily downloadable, the methodology well explained, and the conclusions fundamental.  Unfortunately, when you do a Google News search for El Nino or Southern Oscillation, all you come up with is Kim et al. (2009), which is a direct result of the very aggressive sales pitching by the Science journal.</p>
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		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350105&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan Maue (#102)&lt;/a&gt;,

I was going to suggest an audit of the paper, but then I noticed the following at the very end:


&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Acknowledgment&lt;/strong&gt;. We thank Craig Loehle for comments on aspects of the statistical analysis used in the study.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350105" rel="nofollow">Ryan Maue (#102)</a>,</p>
<p>I was going to suggest an audit of the paper, but then I noticed the following at the very end:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Acknowledgment</strong>. We thank Craig Loehle for comments on aspects of the statistical analysis used in the study.</p></blockquote>
<p> <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Maue</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186905</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan Maue]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350108&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mike B (#103)&lt;/a&gt;, probably should get a press release ready.  I think it would be a good writing exercise to put together possible press releases and issue them preemptively to combat the agenda-driven, partisan skeptics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350108" rel="nofollow">Mike B (#103)</a>, probably should get a press release ready.  I think it would be a good writing exercise to put together possible press releases and issue them preemptively to combat the agenda-driven, partisan skeptics.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike B</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/02/increased-atlantic-hurricane-landfalls-from-a-new-form-of-el-nino/#comment-186904</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=6464#comment-186904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-350105&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ryan Maue (#102)&lt;/a&gt;,

I suspect that there will be a number of scientists who dispute that this paper &quot;ends the debate.&quot; ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-350105" rel="nofollow">Ryan Maue (#102)</a>,</p>
<p>I suspect that there will be a number of scientists who dispute that this paper &#8220;ends the debate.&#8221; <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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