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	<title>Comments on: Varves: To Log or Not to Log</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 22:47:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Johan i Kanada</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194360</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johan i Kanada]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 06:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194360</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I understood this correctly, in some cases, the assumed relationship is T = f(X) and in others T = f(log X).  And the main/only justification for the choice (log or not log) is what fits best?

Or is there a hidden physical reason somewhere?

(I am perhaps &quot;beating a dead horse&quot;, but statistics, however valuable tools it does indeed provide, does not become science without science.  And, please re-direct me to some other thread/blog of this is OT here.)

Thanks,
  /Johan]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I understood this correctly, in some cases, the assumed relationship is T = f(X) and in others T = f(log X).  And the main/only justification for the choice (log or not log) is what fits best?</p>
<p>Or is there a hidden physical reason somewhere?</p>
<p>(I am perhaps &#8220;beating a dead horse&#8221;, but statistics, however valuable tools it does indeed provide, does not become science without science.  And, please re-direct me to some other thread/blog of this is OT here.)</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
  /Johan</p>
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	</item>
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		<title>By: Chas</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Slightly OT; There is a rather enjoyable bit of software for fitting and comparing many many pdf&#039;s called EasyFit (www.mathwave.com )- It has a 30 day free trial period, which is very handy.
It can save quite a bit of digging around sometimes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slightly OT; There is a rather enjoyable bit of software for fitting and comparing many many pdf&#8217;s called EasyFit (www.mathwave.com )- It has a 30 day free trial period, which is very handy.<br />
It can save quite a bit of digging around sometimes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-357063&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kenneth Fritsch (#27)&lt;/a&gt;,
I caught your message. Give yourself a B. I kind of disagree. The Kaufman paper is arctic region, not NH, not global. So I see it as not really a &quot;move on&quot; to a different strategy. Same strategy, different region.
.
Because the real problem in Kaufman (aside from questionable varvoclimatology) is series #22 Yamal. They&#039;ve &quot;moved on&quot; from bcps in California, but have NOT moved off of Yamal. They&#039;re not THAT ready to &quot;move on&quot;.
.
I think it is important to explain that uptick in Yamal. Hence my renewed interest in wild distributions of ring widths in coniferous species such as bcp. I should review the Yamal threads. Any pictures of those trees, site conditions, natural history of the area? Based on bcp&#039;s I&#039;m guessing there was some cataclysmic disturbance there followed by a biased sampling. What were the circumstance under which those trees were sampled? Sort of like if you were to try to reconstruct climate in the northeast by sampling right after the great ice storm of &#039;98. A worse sampling scheme could not be imagined. (One wonders why Graybill chose the trees he did when he did.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-357063" rel="nofollow">Kenneth Fritsch (#27)</a>,<br />
I caught your message. Give yourself a B. I kind of disagree. The Kaufman paper is arctic region, not NH, not global. So I see it as not really a &#8220;move on&#8221; to a different strategy. Same strategy, different region.<br />
.<br />
Because the real problem in Kaufman (aside from questionable varvoclimatology) is series #22 Yamal. They&#8217;ve &#8220;moved on&#8221; from bcps in California, but have NOT moved off of Yamal. They&#8217;re not THAT ready to &#8220;move on&#8221;.<br />
.<br />
I think it is important to explain that uptick in Yamal. Hence my renewed interest in wild distributions of ring widths in coniferous species such as bcp. I should review the Yamal threads. Any pictures of those trees, site conditions, natural history of the area? Based on bcp&#8217;s I&#8217;m guessing there was some cataclysmic disturbance there followed by a biased sampling. What were the circumstance under which those trees were sampled? Sort of like if you were to try to reconstruct climate in the northeast by sampling right after the great ice storm of &#8217;98. A worse sampling scheme could not be imagined. (One wonders why Graybill chose the trees he did when he did.)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-357043&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bender (#25)&lt;/a&gt;, Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-357052&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John A (#26)&lt;/a&gt;,

And I thought I was making a point about the need for a physical/rational model even when initial out-of-sample data might support a purely empirical model based on in-sample data.

Familar: as in the Team moving on from errors and the great divergence.

I am grading myself with an F for failure to get my point across.  I&#039;ll let Bender and John A grade themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-357043" rel="nofollow">bender (#25)</a>, Re: <a href="#comment-357052" rel="nofollow">John A (#26)</a>,</p>
<p>And I thought I was making a point about the need for a physical/rational model even when initial out-of-sample data might support a purely empirical model based on in-sample data.</p>
<p>Familar: as in the Team moving on from errors and the great divergence.</p>
<p>I am grading myself with an F for failure to get my point across.  I&#8217;ll let Bender and John A grade themselves.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John A</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194356</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-357043&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bender (#25)&lt;/a&gt;,

Yes]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-357043" rel="nofollow">bender (#25)</a>,</p>
<p>Yes</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194355</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-357003&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kenneth Fritsch (#24)&lt;/a&gt;,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Sound familiar. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Lehman Bros, The Bears, or both?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-357003" rel="nofollow">Kenneth Fritsch (#24)</a>,</p>
<blockquote><p>Sound familiar. </p></blockquote>
<p>Lehman Bros, The Bears, or both?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Fritsch</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kenneth Fritsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;They have no concept of the problems arising from initial overfitting of the model with &quot;in-sample&quot; data or the truer test of the model being out-of-sample. &lt;/blockquote&gt;


And do they go broke as often as you&#039;d expect?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Once the out-of-sample data indicates that the strategy is going south they move onto a new strategy.  Sound familar. The biggest losses I have seen are when a model with no a prior rationalizations makes an initial big out-of-sample splash and then goes south.  That out-of-sample success produces some true believers - even without a rational model for support.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><blockquote>They have no concept of the problems arising from initial overfitting of the model with &#8220;in-sample&#8221; data or the truer test of the model being out-of-sample. </p></blockquote>
<p>And do they go broke as often as you&#8217;d expect?</p></blockquote>
<p>Once the out-of-sample data indicates that the strategy is going south they move onto a new strategy.  Sound familar. The biggest losses I have seen are when a model with no a prior rationalizations makes an initial big out-of-sample splash and then goes south.  That out-of-sample success produces some true believers &#8211; even without a rational model for support.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Scott Brim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Brim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-356964&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bender (#21)&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Just invert it!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here you go:
.

.
It&#039;s upside down cake. Plus, you can have your cake and eat it too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-356964" rel="nofollow">bender (#21)</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Just invert it!</p></blockquote>
<p>Here you go:<br />
.</p>
<p>.<br />
It&#8217;s upside down cake. Plus, you can have your cake and eat it too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John A</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194352</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-356914&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dave Dardinger (#14)&lt;/a&gt;,

&lt;strong&gt;Memo to self:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;stop writing comments late at night on your iPhone. That way you won&#039;t look stupid.&lt;/em&gt;

Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-356962&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (#20)&lt;/a&gt;,

I can&#039;t help wondering if Kaufman has missed a trick. If it was me, I&#039;d be looking at calibrating &lt;em&gt;variance&lt;/em&gt; with inverted temperature, the higher the variance - the lower the mean temperature. That would at least make meteorological sense since warm periods are generally periods of reduced seasonal variability, especially in the Arctic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-356914" rel="nofollow">Dave Dardinger (#14)</a>,</p>
<p><strong>Memo to self:</strong> <em>stop writing comments late at night on your iPhone. That way you won&#8217;t look stupid.</em></p>
<p>Re: <a href="#comment-356962" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (#20)</a>,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t help wondering if Kaufman has missed a trick. If it was me, I&#8217;d be looking at calibrating <em>variance</em> with inverted temperature, the higher the variance &#8211; the lower the mean temperature. That would at least make meteorological sense since warm periods are generally periods of reduced seasonal variability, especially in the Arctic.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2009/09/22/varves-to-log-or-not-to-log/#comment-194351</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7107#comment-194351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just invert it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just invert it!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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