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	<title>Comments on: Krummholz and the Yamal Chronology</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 03:03:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kiminori Itoh</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiminori Itoh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 04:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you very much. The information is very informative as usual. I will include it in my (Japanese) book which I am preparing now.
Thank you again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much. The information is very informative as usual. I will include it in my (Japanese) book which I am preparing now.<br />
Thank you again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229513</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 23:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom P with the brilliant insights. It&#039;s a miracle he came back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom P with the brilliant insights. It&#8217;s a miracle he came back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229495</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 15:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Incidentally, if anyone is interested in pursuing this analogy, here is the relevant text fromt he SEC complaint:

&quot;In sum, [Goldman Sachs] arranged a transaction at Paulson&#039;s request in which Paulson heavily influenced the selection of the portfolio to suit its economic interests, but failed to disclose to investors, as part of the description of the portfolio selection process contained in the marketing materials used to promote the transaction, Paulson&#039;s role in the portfolio selection process or its adverse economic interests.&quot;

And here is the link to the SEC complaint:

http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2010/comp21489.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, if anyone is interested in pursuing this analogy, here is the relevant text fromt he SEC complaint:</p>
<p>&#8220;In sum, [Goldman Sachs] arranged a transaction at Paulson&#8217;s request in which Paulson heavily influenced the selection of the portfolio to suit its economic interests, but failed to disclose to investors, as part of the description of the portfolio selection process contained in the marketing materials used to promote the transaction, Paulson&#8217;s role in the portfolio selection process or its adverse economic interests.&#8221;</p>
<p>And here is the link to the SEC complaint:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2010/comp21489.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2010/comp21489.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Thorsten Ottosen</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229174</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thorsten Ottosen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 20:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll try to review the potential impact of the factors I mention above. In the end the conclusion must be that it is /very/ difficult to interpret tree rings as data for temperature without kwowledge about other factors.

a) Effect of water
------------------

If the summer is very hot, growth may be limited as the tree lacks water. Therefore this will lead to a large underestimate of the true temperature. Only trees that are not likely to suffer from lack of water can thus be trusted.

b) Effect of wind
-----------------

Larch is tree that has very poor wind resistance. So if the tree in question has been subject to a lot of wind during some period of it&#039;s life, those years it&#039;s growth cannot be compared with a later or previous period where little wind was present, or where other tres became big enough to provide shelter from the wind.

c) Effect of sunshine. 
----------------------
The photosynthesis could be larger in a colder climate with more sunshine hours than in a warmer climate with fewer sunshine ours.

d) Effect of age
----------------

It seems that age affects the tree-rings in indirect ways as well as direct ways. In particular, in a forrest the trees will be too close for the trees to devolop large branches horizontally. This implies only the topmost part of the tree will have green parts as the trees fight for the light. The effect is that the stems become elongated, and slimmer than they would normally have been.

So the tree might actually be growing as fast as usual (with no direct age impact). The width of the tree rings will be determined by the green parts of the tree relative to the amount of stem (vertical and hirizontal). The (green parts)/(amount of stem) ratio may of course be dependent on age, but also on other factors like wind, soil, and neighbouring trees.

So for a particular year, a particular tree can have its own particular (green parts)/(amount of stem) ratio. How may one possible reconstruct those?

In turn, this seems to imply that any approach that adjust for age by some exponential factor would need to use a different expoential function per tree. Is that what is being done?

It seems like a formidable task to interpret the tree-rings correctly. I would much more like to see comparisons of tree-rings of trees of the same age, under the same conditions (water,soil,wind etc), but growing at different periods in time, than I would see comparisons of tree rings on the same tree.

-Thorsten]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try to review the potential impact of the factors I mention above. In the end the conclusion must be that it is /very/ difficult to interpret tree rings as data for temperature without kwowledge about other factors.</p>
<p>a) Effect of water<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>If the summer is very hot, growth may be limited as the tree lacks water. Therefore this will lead to a large underestimate of the true temperature. Only trees that are not likely to suffer from lack of water can thus be trusted.</p>
<p>b) Effect of wind<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>Larch is tree that has very poor wind resistance. So if the tree in question has been subject to a lot of wind during some period of it&#8217;s life, those years it&#8217;s growth cannot be compared with a later or previous period where little wind was present, or where other tres became big enough to provide shelter from the wind.</p>
<p>c) Effect of sunshine.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
The photosynthesis could be larger in a colder climate with more sunshine hours than in a warmer climate with fewer sunshine ours.</p>
<p>d) Effect of age<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>It seems that age affects the tree-rings in indirect ways as well as direct ways. In particular, in a forrest the trees will be too close for the trees to devolop large branches horizontally. This implies only the topmost part of the tree will have green parts as the trees fight for the light. The effect is that the stems become elongated, and slimmer than they would normally have been.</p>
<p>So the tree might actually be growing as fast as usual (with no direct age impact). The width of the tree rings will be determined by the green parts of the tree relative to the amount of stem (vertical and hirizontal). The (green parts)/(amount of stem) ratio may of course be dependent on age, but also on other factors like wind, soil, and neighbouring trees.</p>
<p>So for a particular year, a particular tree can have its own particular (green parts)/(amount of stem) ratio. How may one possible reconstruct those?</p>
<p>In turn, this seems to imply that any approach that adjust for age by some exponential factor would need to use a different expoential function per tree. Is that what is being done?</p>
<p>It seems like a formidable task to interpret the tree-rings correctly. I would much more like to see comparisons of tree-rings of trees of the same age, under the same conditions (water,soil,wind etc), but growing at different periods in time, than I would see comparisons of tree rings on the same tree.</p>
<p>-Thorsten</p>
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		<title>By: sbd</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sbd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 20:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure if this has been posted on here or not, but the AG in Virginia is investigating Mann and what he did with the state Grant Money he was receiving.

Here is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Virginia_Attorney_General_Letter.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link to the university&lt;/a&gt; along with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Attorney_General_Cover.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;documents demands&lt;/a&gt; requested for the investigation.




Sal]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure if this has been posted on here or not, but the AG in Virginia is investigating Mann and what he did with the state Grant Money he was receiving.</p>
<p>Here is a <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Virginia_Attorney_General_Letter.pdf" rel="nofollow">link to the university</a> along with the <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Attorney_General_Cover.pdf" rel="nofollow">documents demands</a> requested for the investigation.</p>
<p>Sal</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 00:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hard to think of a nuclear fallout effect. The concentrations are minute (but easily measured because the instruments are so sensitive). I&#039;ve been involved in some work where seeds were irradiated with X-rays and gammas, but this was to try to produce strange mutants. Nothing much happened, but other workers have reported effects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard to think of a nuclear fallout effect. The concentrations are minute (but easily measured because the instruments are so sensitive). I&#8217;ve been involved in some work where seeds were irradiated with X-rays and gammas, but this was to try to produce strange mutants. Nothing much happened, but other workers have reported effects.</p>
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		<title>By: Follow the Money</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Follow the Money]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 00:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What about growth effects from radiation, say from atmospheric atomic and hydrogen bomb testing, especially in the 1950&#039;s and early 1960&#039;s? Any public studies on that? 

The Yamal Peninsula is downwind from the island Novaya Zemalya, where the Soviets tested their bombs.

Interestingly, bristlecones, esp. the Sierra ones, are close to American above ground test sites in Nevada.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about growth effects from radiation, say from atmospheric atomic and hydrogen bomb testing, especially in the 1950&#8242;s and early 1960&#8242;s? Any public studies on that? </p>
<p>The Yamal Peninsula is downwind from the island Novaya Zemalya, where the Soviets tested their bombs.</p>
<p>Interestingly, bristlecones, esp. the Sierra ones, are close to American above ground test sites in Nevada.</p>
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		<title>By: Original Mike</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Original Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m new here (sought this blog out after reading Montford&#039;s new book).  Thanks much for pointing that thread out for me, AMac. Only part way through it, but it&#039;s fascinating stuff. I&#039;ve got a prior interest because I recently performed CT scans on two bristlecone pine logs a colleague brought me.  Thanks again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m new here (sought this blog out after reading Montford&#8217;s new book).  Thanks much for pointing that thread out for me, AMac. Only part way through it, but it&#8217;s fascinating stuff. I&#8217;ve got a prior interest because I recently performed CT scans on two bristlecone pine logs a colleague brought me.  Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: mpaul</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229120</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mpaul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229120</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Except I suspect that some series are stationary and others (notably the morphological switch hitters) are non-stationary. I&#039;d be cautious about averaging in non-stationary SP series and regressing the result.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except I suspect that some series are stationary and others (notably the morphological switch hitters) are non-stationary. I&#8217;d be cautious about averaging in non-stationary SP series and regressing the result.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: AMac</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/28/krummholz-and-the-yamal-chronology/#comment-229117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AMac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 18:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=10847#comment-229117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-229062&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Original Mike (Apr 29 13:42)&lt;/a&gt;, 

One of the earlier threads in which similar issues arose was last November&#039;s &quot;Miracles and Strip Bark Standardization.&quot;  A dendrologist engaged in back and forth in the comments (&lt;i&gt;likely&lt;/i&gt; a dendrologist, as &quot;CB&quot; was pseudonymous).  My &lt;a href=&quot;http://amac1.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-topic-thoughts-addressed-to.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;too-long comment&lt;/a&gt; provides an entry to that part of that thread.  It seems some of the issues discussed there may be relevant here, as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-229062" rel="nofollow">Original Mike (Apr 29 13:42)</a>, </p>
<p>One of the earlier threads in which similar issues arose was last November&#8217;s &#8220;Miracles and Strip Bark Standardization.&#8221;  A dendrologist engaged in back and forth in the comments (<i>likely</i> a dendrologist, as &#8220;CB&#8221; was pseudonymous).  My <a href="http://amac1.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-topic-thoughts-addressed-to.html" rel="nofollow">too-long comment</a> provides an entry to that part of that thread.  It seems some of the issues discussed there may be relevant here, as well.</p>
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