<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Replicating McShane and Wyner</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 16:38:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240395</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 00:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240395</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a lengthy manuscript and it has several different aspects to it.  The authors state:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In this paper, we assess the reliability of such reconstructions and their statistical significance against various null models. 

...

We propose our own reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere average annual land temperature over the last millenium, assess its reliability, and compare it to those from the climate science literature. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I have not had the time to look at the results in sufficient detail to pass judgment on the appropriateness of their approach, but, despite Steve&#039;s (and my) aversion to Mann&#039;s proclivity to devise new methods, would you not think that statisticians writing in a statistics journal might not be held to quite the same limits?  From what I have seen it is not as much &quot;new&quot; methodology as opposed to previously developed statistical methods being applied in a new environment.

I think it will be interesting to see what commentary will appear with the article and who that commentary will come from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a lengthy manuscript and it has several different aspects to it.  The authors state:</p>
<blockquote><p>In this paper, we assess the reliability of such reconstructions and their statistical significance against various null models. </p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>We propose our own reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere average annual land temperature over the last millenium, assess its reliability, and compare it to those from the climate science literature. </p></blockquote>
<p>I have not had the time to look at the results in sufficient detail to pass judgment on the appropriateness of their approach, but, despite Steve&#8217;s (and my) aversion to Mann&#8217;s proclivity to devise new methods, would you not think that statisticians writing in a statistics journal might not be held to quite the same limits?  From what I have seen it is not as much &#8220;new&#8221; methodology as opposed to previously developed statistical methods being applied in a new environment.</p>
<p>I think it will be interesting to see what commentary will appear with the article and who that commentary will come from.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240394</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RomanM, I certainly agree.  However, what you are describing sounds like a paper all by itself.  Unless I missed something, this was not a paper that proposed to introduce a new method and compared and contrasted this method with other methods, arguing why this method should be the new norm.  If I&#039;m wrong, I&#039;ll certainly admit that that is the case.  

On this blog, Steve has had many posts arguing against the way Mann introduces new methods without spending an appropriate amount of time explaining why the new method is better than any other method. If you are arguing that their goal was to introduce a new method, then it seems like they went about it the wrong way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RomanM, I certainly agree.  However, what you are describing sounds like a paper all by itself.  Unless I missed something, this was not a paper that proposed to introduce a new method and compared and contrasted this method with other methods, arguing why this method should be the new norm.  If I&#8217;m wrong, I&#8217;ll certainly admit that that is the case.  </p>
<p>On this blog, Steve has had many posts arguing against the way Mann introduces new methods without spending an appropriate amount of time explaining why the new method is better than any other method. If you are arguing that their goal was to introduce a new method, then it seems like they went about it the wrong way.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: EdeF</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EdeF]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is Steve from 2008 on MBH proxy non-calibrations:

http://climateaudit.org/2008/04/23/univariate-calibration/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is Steve from 2008 on MBH proxy non-calibrations:</p>
<p><a href="http://climateaudit.org/2008/04/23/univariate-calibration/" rel="nofollow">http://climateaudit.org/2008/04/23/univariate-calibration/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RomanM</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240381</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RomanM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-240375&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; bill (Aug 28 08:59)&lt;/a&gt;, 

In my book, &quot;has not been used&quot; and &quot;should not have been used&quot; do not have the same meaning.  New ways of looking at things can often provide better insight than arguing the old methods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-240375" rel="nofollow"> bill (Aug 28 08:59)</a>, </p>
<p>In my book, &#8220;has not been used&#8221; and &#8220;should not have been used&#8221; do not have the same meaning.  New ways of looking at things can often provide better insight than arguing the old methods.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240375</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He sure seems to be saying that there isn&#039;t much point in commenting on the content of their work, since they have the wrong content.  From his point of view, why should he comment on methods that should not have been used?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He sure seems to be saying that there isn&#8217;t much point in commenting on the content of their work, since they have the wrong content.  From his point of view, why should he comment on methods that should not have been used?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Climate Blog and News Recap: 2010 08 27 &#171; The Whiteboard</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240350</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Climate Blog and News Recap: 2010 08 27 &#171; The Whiteboard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240350</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Replicating McShane and Wyner (climate audit) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Replicating McShane and Wyner (climate audit) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Gray</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240292</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t there some circularity here? The purpose of the proxy reconstructions is to determine past temperatures. This climate history will then be used with climate models to determine CO2 sensitivity. 

So this example seem to be deriving CO2 sensitivity not from temperature but from CO2 concentration. So CO2 derives CO2. Isn’t the example just predicting CO concentration from CO2 concentration plus some noise? In regard to temperature, isn’t the example  just assuming the conclusion that CO2 CONCENTRATION IS A LINEAR PREDICTOR OF TEMPERATURE?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t there some circularity here? The purpose of the proxy reconstructions is to determine past temperatures. This climate history will then be used with climate models to determine CO2 sensitivity. </p>
<p>So this example seem to be deriving CO2 sensitivity not from temperature but from CO2 concentration. So CO2 derives CO2. Isn’t the example just predicting CO concentration from CO2 concentration plus some noise? In regard to temperature, isn’t the example  just assuming the conclusion that CO2 CONCENTRATION IS A LINEAR PREDICTOR OF TEMPERATURE?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Gray</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240287</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since when is CO2 forcing considered to be a proxy for temperature. Why not put in the Dow, number of Anglican curates etc?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since when is CO2 forcing considered to be a proxy for temperature. Why not put in the Dow, number of Anglican curates etc?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AMac</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240286</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AMac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-240283&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;EdeF (Aug 26 12:36)&lt;/a&gt;, 

At the Air Vent, Jeff Id has used pseudoproxies with low S/N ratios to show convincingly that it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; possible to extract signal in the presence of a lot of noise.  The AGW Consensus paleoclimate reconstructors shouldn&#039;t be faulted for working with low-signal proxies... since that&#039;s the only type that exist.

Mann08&#039;s screening was set up in a way that allowed the Tiljander series (plural) to pass.  This illustrates some of the flaws in the AGW Consensus&#039; &lt;i&gt;implementation&lt;/i&gt; of the &quot;proxy&quot; idea, which I have come to think of as the Proxyhopper approach -- &quot;if they look plausible, toss &#039;em in, the algorithm will take care of any difficulties.&quot;

The pitfalls of setting out to look for the kind of data that you&#039;d like to find have been discussed at length, and are well-understood in many fields,, e.g. in clinical trial design.  That Mann08&#039;s employment of the Tiljander series &lt;i&gt;continues&lt;/i&gt; to be defended by AGW Consensus scientists is evidence that this basic point is still not grasped.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-240283" rel="nofollow">EdeF (Aug 26 12:36)</a>, </p>
<p>At the Air Vent, Jeff Id has used pseudoproxies with low S/N ratios to show convincingly that it <i>is</i> possible to extract signal in the presence of a lot of noise.  The AGW Consensus paleoclimate reconstructors shouldn&#8217;t be faulted for working with low-signal proxies&#8230; since that&#8217;s the only type that exist.</p>
<p>Mann08&#8242;s screening was set up in a way that allowed the Tiljander series (plural) to pass.  This illustrates some of the flaws in the AGW Consensus&#8217; <i>implementation</i> of the &#8220;proxy&#8221; idea, which I have come to think of as the Proxyhopper approach &#8212; &#8220;if they look plausible, toss &#8216;em in, the algorithm will take care of any difficulties.&#8221;</p>
<p>The pitfalls of setting out to look for the kind of data that you&#8217;d like to find have been discussed at length, and are well-understood in many fields,, e.g. in clinical trial design.  That Mann08&#8242;s employment of the Tiljander series <i>continues</i> to be defended by AGW Consensus scientists is evidence that this basic point is still not grasped.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: EdeF</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/08/23/replicating-mcshane-and-wyner/#comment-240283</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[EdeF]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=11874#comment-240283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amac, thanks for the response and the data. My plots of BCPs in the White Mtns look very similar to your plots of varve density vs temperature in the validation period. To me it looks like a bird-gun shot pattern and I didn&#039;t even bother to try to fit a curve to the data. Looks like nonsense to me and I can&#039;t believe that these poor correlations show that the proxies are linear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amac, thanks for the response and the data. My plots of BCPs in the White Mtns look very similar to your plots of varve density vs temperature in the validation period. To me it looks like a bird-gun shot pattern and I didn&#8217;t even bother to try to fit a curve to the data. Looks like nonsense to me and I can&#8217;t believe that these poor correlations show that the proxies are linear.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
