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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Without oversight or challenge&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TAG&gt;

You sound like you don&#039;t know many computer programmers :)

Good source control software for programming exists, and yet there are still plenty of people not using it, or managing to defeat the purpose of the system. It&#039;s sadly true that many large projects do descend into chaos, even in the real world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TAG&gt;</p>
<p>You sound like you don&#8217;t know many computer programmers <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Good source control software for programming exists, and yet there are still plenty of people not using it, or managing to defeat the purpose of the system. It&#8217;s sadly true that many large projects do descend into chaos, even in the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: Top Posts &#8212; WordPress.com</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244444</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Top Posts &#8212; WordPress.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...]  &#8220;Without oversight or challenge&#8221; One of my long-standing concerns of Climate Audit and its readers has been a concern over the role of Eugene Wahl in [...] [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  &#8220;Without oversight or challenge&#8221; One of my long-standing concerns of Climate Audit and its readers has been a concern over the role of Eugene Wahl in [...] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ian L. McQueen</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian L. McQueen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would appear that review editor John Mitchell was an avid student of Sir Humphrey Appleby.

IanM]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would appear that review editor John Mitchell was an avid student of Sir Humphrey Appleby.</p>
<p>IanM</p>
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		<title>By: oneuniverse</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244359</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[oneuniverse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The comment I was replying to has disappeared - I guess this is O/T too, sorry, please feel free to remove.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comment I was replying to has disappeared &#8211; I guess this is O/T too, sorry, please feel free to remove.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Bratby</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244342</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phillip Bratby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Absolutely agree.  A document management system is vital for a process as complex as that of reviewing and amending the IPCC documents.  There are plenty that can be bought off the shelf.  No doubt none of those in academia have any understanding of real-world engineering processes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely agree.  A document management system is vital for a process as complex as that of reviewing and amending the IPCC documents.  There are plenty that can be bought off the shelf.  No doubt none of those in academia have any understanding of real-world engineering processes.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244330</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Anderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 03:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is one of the key differences between real-world engineering projects and some of these other kinds of endeavors.  In an engineering context, the entire focus is getting the engineering correct and knowing exactly what was done.  In academia and in policy projects (like the IPCC) the focus is often on protecting pet opinions, soothing fragile egos, behind-the-scenes negotiations about how to frame a particular point, how strongly to word it, etc.

The process -- and the resulting substance -- are an entirely different kind of &quot;science&quot; than the hands-on, testable, repeatable, real-world applied science engineers are used to.  I think this is part of the reason so many engineers are (perhaps rightly) astounded at the way climate science is carried out.

It doesn&#039;t necessarily mean that climate science could be carried out any other way (after all, we&#039;re talking about attempts to peer into the distant past and the distant future, rather than actual lab science), but it does mean that we should regard its results and conclusions with an appropriate amount of skepticism.  In terms of certainty, accuracy, concreteness and so forth, so very much of climate science is not at all on the same footing as applied science and technology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is one of the key differences between real-world engineering projects and some of these other kinds of endeavors.  In an engineering context, the entire focus is getting the engineering correct and knowing exactly what was done.  In academia and in policy projects (like the IPCC) the focus is often on protecting pet opinions, soothing fragile egos, behind-the-scenes negotiations about how to frame a particular point, how strongly to word it, etc.</p>
<p>The process &#8212; and the resulting substance &#8212; are an entirely different kind of &#8220;science&#8221; than the hands-on, testable, repeatable, real-world applied science engineers are used to.  I think this is part of the reason so many engineers are (perhaps rightly) astounded at the way climate science is carried out.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that climate science could be carried out any other way (after all, we&#8217;re talking about attempts to peer into the distant past and the distant future, rather than actual lab science), but it does mean that we should regard its results and conclusions with an appropriate amount of skepticism.  In terms of certainty, accuracy, concreteness and so forth, so very much of climate science is not at all on the same footing as applied science and technology.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even if they did, there is no doubt in my mind that they would utterly fail to cover the relevant points, or completely fail to comprehend them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if they did, there is no doubt in my mind that they would utterly fail to cover the relevant points, or completely fail to comprehend them.</p>
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		<title>By: justbeau</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244317</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[justbeau]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a different possible future dynamic in the USA. If one of the houses of Congress were to be taken over by Republicans following an election next week, there could become political incentive for Republicans to hold public hearings to carefully review AGW views advanced by the other party.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a different possible future dynamic in the USA. If one of the houses of Congress were to be taken over by Republicans following an election next week, there could become political incentive for Republicans to hold public hearings to carefully review AGW views advanced by the other party.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244313</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Donna Laframboise has been digging into the qualifications of the Lead Authors and the results are most revealing and might  be a factor in this discussion.

http://nofrakkingconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/meet-the-ipccs-youngest-lead-author/


Very junior people in their early 20&#039;s without advanced degrees and have &quot;worked for Greenpeace&quot; as their only major qualification.

Donna lives in Steve&#039;s neck of the woods in Fordville . . .  maybe time to compare notes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donna Laframboise has been digging into the qualifications of the Lead Authors and the results are most revealing and might  be a factor in this discussion.</p>
<p><a href="http://nofrakkingconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/meet-the-ipccs-youngest-lead-author/" rel="nofollow">http://nofrakkingconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/meet-the-ipccs-youngest-lead-author/</a></p>
<p>Very junior people in their early 20&#8242;s without advanced degrees and have &#8220;worked for Greenpeace&#8221; as their only major qualification.</p>
<p>Donna lives in Steve&#8217;s neck of the woods in Fordville . . .  maybe time to compare notes.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Drake</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/26/without-oversight-or-challenge/#comment-244311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Drake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12234#comment-244311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What&#039;s truly incredible is that any scientist with a reputation to protect would say:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Wahl and Ammann (2006) also show that the impact on the amplitude of the final reconstruction is very small (~0.05°C ...)&lt;/blockquote&gt;
instead of the much more honest and open (though still inadequate)
&lt;blockquote&gt;it is unclear whether it [the MM criticisms] has a marked impact upon the final reconstruction&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Then when this wording and process is challended the whole apparatus of IPCC (despite its code of conduct), UEA (despite its FOI policies), Royal Society (throwing Nullius in Verba out the window) and all the rest is deployed to maintain the deception.

After all, as Steve and everyone has said, the Hockey Stick has never been central to anthropogenic global warming theory. Why on earth did this strange group of people choose to close ranks to this degree? In software design we are taught to avoid a single point of failure at all costs. Why this absurd attempt to stand firm on something obviously flawed but otherwise so unimportant? (I know it had PR value in 2001 but really.) Who knows why. The select committee should give them a rocket. We&#039;ll see what they manage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s truly incredible is that any scientist with a reputation to protect would say:</p>
<blockquote><p>Wahl and Ammann (2006) also show that the impact on the amplitude of the final reconstruction is very small (~0.05°C &#8230;)</p></blockquote>
<p>instead of the much more honest and open (though still inadequate)</p>
<blockquote><p>it is unclear whether it [the MM criticisms] has a marked impact upon the final reconstruction</p></blockquote>
<p>Then when this wording and process is challended the whole apparatus of IPCC (despite its code of conduct), UEA (despite its FOI policies), Royal Society (throwing Nullius in Verba out the window) and all the rest is deployed to maintain the deception.</p>
<p>After all, as Steve and everyone has said, the Hockey Stick has never been central to anthropogenic global warming theory. Why on earth did this strange group of people choose to close ranks to this degree? In software design we are taught to avoid a single point of failure at all costs. Why this absurd attempt to stand firm on something obviously flawed but otherwise so unimportant? (I know it had PR value in 2001 but really.) Who knows why. The select committee should give them a rocket. We&#8217;ll see what they manage.</p>
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