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	<title>Comments on: Watch the Pea</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 15:32:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: I &#8220;hardly&#8221; see anything which seems damning at all &#8212; Michael Mann &#171; the Air Vent</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-311279</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I &#8220;hardly&#8221; see anything which seems damning at all &#8212; Michael Mann &#171; the Air Vent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-311279</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Jones of Climategate 1 testified: Phil Jones comments on questions concerning deletion of emails  Mon, 26 Jul [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jones of Climategate 1 testified: Phil Jones comments on questions concerning deletion of emails  Mon, 26 Jul [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bobdenton</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bobdenton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 09:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Needs a snappier title.

 &quot;A Convenient Untruth&quot; maybe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Needs a snappier title.</p>
<p> &#8220;A Convenient Untruth&#8221; maybe.</p>
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		<title>By: Quirkyllama</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244992</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quirkyllama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 08:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The whole fiasco, in video format...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cCWkdukAto]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole fiasco, in video format&#8230;<br />
<span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='640' height='390' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/-cCWkdukAto?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
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		<title>By: ianl8888</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ianl8888]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;He most likely knew that Briffa was trying to get the Wahl paper entered into the IPCC documentation ...&quot;

Yes, that is my best current understanding as well. He knew the Wahl-Briffa interaction was going on. His later email statement that &quot;Keith should deny their existence&quot; tells me he also knew it likely transgressed IPCC standing protocols]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He most likely knew that Briffa was trying to get the Wahl paper entered into the IPCC documentation &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, that is my best current understanding as well. He knew the Wahl-Briffa interaction was going on. His later email statement that &#8220;Keith should deny their existence&#8221; tells me he also knew it likely transgressed IPCC standing protocols</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244683</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 04:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the July 10 Russell report we read at page 87. &quot;Information can only be withheld if: ―in all the
circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exception
outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information.&quot;

In the October Commons braodcast at about 9.58.43 minutes, Russell says I was not going to put the review into a position of making the sort of quasi-judicial, prosecutorial investigative judgements (etc)&quot; Why not?

And at 9.59.19, Russell again (about his committee) - &quot;You are getting to the point where you are alleging that there might be an offence.&quot;

I keep raising this topic because it was Russell before the Commons Committees who raised the suspicion of illegality, several times. The thought of police involvement plausibly crossed his mind, with his use of words like &quot;caution&quot; and &quot;criminal offence&quot;. His reason for inaction was that the Information Commissioner was enabled to act. But the IC had already stated that time had passed and he could not investigate SPECIFIC cases. This is not a defence for Russell to fail to proceed with general questions of illegality.

In my book, Russell was obliged to mention illegality, to ask questions about it, and if evidence existed, contact the appropriate officers. There are many inquiries that recommend taking matters to Public Prosecutors or the like. The possibility of illegality was not denied by either Russell or Acton. Indeed, they raised it. Was Jones guilty? Not for me to judge, but re-read the first para here and compare it with Jones email quoted above under my name at Oct 28, 2010 at 6:04 PM.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the July 10 Russell report we read at page 87. &#8220;Information can only be withheld if: ―in all the<br />
circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exception<br />
outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the October Commons braodcast at about 9.58.43 minutes, Russell says I was not going to put the review into a position of making the sort of quasi-judicial, prosecutorial investigative judgements (etc)&#8221; Why not?</p>
<p>And at 9.59.19, Russell again (about his committee) &#8211; &#8220;You are getting to the point where you are alleging that there might be an offence.&#8221;</p>
<p>I keep raising this topic because it was Russell before the Commons Committees who raised the suspicion of illegality, several times. The thought of police involvement plausibly crossed his mind, with his use of words like &#8220;caution&#8221; and &#8220;criminal offence&#8221;. His reason for inaction was that the Information Commissioner was enabled to act. But the IC had already stated that time had passed and he could not investigate SPECIFIC cases. This is not a defence for Russell to fail to proceed with general questions of illegality.</p>
<p>In my book, Russell was obliged to mention illegality, to ask questions about it, and if evidence existed, contact the appropriate officers. There are many inquiries that recommend taking matters to Public Prosecutors or the like. The possibility of illegality was not denied by either Russell or Acton. Indeed, they raised it. Was Jones guilty? Not for me to judge, but re-read the first para here and compare it with Jones email quoted above under my name at Oct 28, 2010 at 6:04 PM.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I forgot to mention, their reasons for denial do not agree with the notion that they were convinced the requests were &quot;vexatious&quot;. Other reasons were used.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to mention, their reasons for denial do not agree with the notion that they were convinced the requests were &#8220;vexatious&#8221;. Other reasons were used.</p>
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		<title>By: Muir Russell admits he didn't ask Phil Jones if he deleted emails - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244647</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Muir Russell admits he didn't ask Phil Jones if he deleted emails - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244647</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Watch the Pea Climate Audit  there is so much more to the story that doesn&#039;t get out to the public. the MPs did a better job of digging for the truth this time but the bullsh*t and misdirecting answers given by muir russell, acton and davies need to be examined. how many meetings need to be held to get to the bottom of this putrid scandal? not only of the principals of the email fiasco but the whitewash investigators as well. the Mann inquiries were just as superficial and concerned with whitewash as the UK ones.   __________________ if you stop blaming me, I will stop pointing out why you are at fault [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Watch the Pea Climate Audit  there is so much more to the story that doesn&#039;t get out to the public. the MPs did a better job of digging for the truth this time but the bullsh*t and misdirecting answers given by muir russell, acton and davies need to be examined. how many meetings need to be held to get to the bottom of this putrid scandal? not only of the principals of the email fiasco but the whitewash investigators as well. the Mann inquiries were just as superficial and concerned with whitewash as the UK ones.   __________________ if you stop blaming me, I will stop pointing out why you are at fault [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jim edwards</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jim edwards]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ron:

You said:
&quot;If UEA loses stature then it also loses the ability to gain funding.&quot;

This is likely true, but the university is required to maintain these FOI officials&#039; positions, whether the university endowment is large or small.  They&#039;re safe, and don&#039;t get bonuses when the endowment increases.  In a court of law, I believe the connection between UEA&#039;s &#039;stature&#039; and influence over / benefit to FOI officials would be found to be too attenuated.  [again, I don&#039;t do criminal law, and certainly not UK law...]

Consider that these officials almost certainly were not privy to the unsavory actions of Jones and company.  That&#039;s important.  Without a real meeting of the minds, you can&#039;t form a conspiracy.

Not that I mean that they couldn&#039;t form a conspiracy to unlawfully withhold information without bringing them into the CRU &#039;web of deceit&#039;.  I read Jones&#039; letter as saying he took more than an hour to demonstrate how Steve M., et Al were bad actors.  In effect, he convinced the officials - through presentation of evidence - that CA were inherently &quot;vexatious&quot;, and requests were solely for the purpose of stifling the work of CRU.

If the officials had seen both sides of the coin, they probably wouldn&#039;t have made this decision.

As I recall many of these denials, they were of the form that &quot;this material is already available at the NCDC website&quot;.  Not having a technical understanding of the significance of what was being asked for, the FOI officials appear to have allowed Jones and co. to craft the substance of the responses to requests.  Why not ?  They believed CRU was filled with saints and they were battling a Canadian Anti-Christ.  Don&#039;t the good folks at CRU know best what&#039;s publicly available ?

I don&#039;t see that the FOI officials improperly agreed to deny information to Steve M, et Al; I see that FOI officials improperly agreed to improperly defer to CRU judgement about how to respond to requests for information.  There&#039;s a big difference between the two.  One smells like crime; one smells like negligence.

The FOI officials are like people who run into a wife [Jones] getting divorced from her husband [Steve M.].  The wife is going to say all kinds of things about her husband - and conveniently leave out her own poor qualities.  They, naturally, feel sorry for the wife.  They may promise to help her move &#039;her&#039; things out of the house.  As I said, above, this looks more to me like defamation by the wife, than a true &#039;conspiracy&#039; between the parties to burglarize the husband&#039;s goods.

I expect prosecuting attorneys might disagree with me.

You also said:
&quot;The only way in which Palmer (or whoever) may be legally convinced not to comply is if it the decision was based on a reasonable legal interpretation.&quot;

I would change &quot;be legally convinced not to comply&quot; with &quot;deny requests for information.&quot;

&lt;strong&gt;Steve: In the delete-all-emails incident, Jones discussed Briffa making untruthful statements to Palmer about the existence of Wahl-Briffa correspondence. Palmer may not have been properly informed. Palmer&#039;s own correspondence has been unfailingly cordial. This could have been feigned, but I got the impression that he was trying to do his job within the rules. 
&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron:</p>
<p>You said:<br />
&#8220;If UEA loses stature then it also loses the ability to gain funding.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is likely true, but the university is required to maintain these FOI officials&#8217; positions, whether the university endowment is large or small.  They&#8217;re safe, and don&#8217;t get bonuses when the endowment increases.  In a court of law, I believe the connection between UEA&#8217;s &#8216;stature&#8217; and influence over / benefit to FOI officials would be found to be too attenuated.  [again, I don't do criminal law, and certainly not UK law...]</p>
<p>Consider that these officials almost certainly were not privy to the unsavory actions of Jones and company.  That&#8217;s important.  Without a real meeting of the minds, you can&#8217;t form a conspiracy.</p>
<p>Not that I mean that they couldn&#8217;t form a conspiracy to unlawfully withhold information without bringing them into the CRU &#8216;web of deceit&#8217;.  I read Jones&#8217; letter as saying he took more than an hour to demonstrate how Steve M., et Al were bad actors.  In effect, he convinced the officials &#8211; through presentation of evidence &#8211; that CA were inherently &#8220;vexatious&#8221;, and requests were solely for the purpose of stifling the work of CRU.</p>
<p>If the officials had seen both sides of the coin, they probably wouldn&#8217;t have made this decision.</p>
<p>As I recall many of these denials, they were of the form that &#8220;this material is already available at the NCDC website&#8221;.  Not having a technical understanding of the significance of what was being asked for, the FOI officials appear to have allowed Jones and co. to craft the substance of the responses to requests.  Why not ?  They believed CRU was filled with saints and they were battling a Canadian Anti-Christ.  Don&#8217;t the good folks at CRU know best what&#8217;s publicly available ?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see that the FOI officials improperly agreed to deny information to Steve M, et Al; I see that FOI officials improperly agreed to improperly defer to CRU judgement about how to respond to requests for information.  There&#8217;s a big difference between the two.  One smells like crime; one smells like negligence.</p>
<p>The FOI officials are like people who run into a wife [Jones] getting divorced from her husband [Steve M.].  The wife is going to say all kinds of things about her husband &#8211; and conveniently leave out her own poor qualities.  They, naturally, feel sorry for the wife.  They may promise to help her move &#8216;her&#8217; things out of the house.  As I said, above, this looks more to me like defamation by the wife, than a true &#8216;conspiracy&#8217; between the parties to burglarize the husband&#8217;s goods.</p>
<p>I expect prosecuting attorneys might disagree with me.</p>
<p>You also said:<br />
&#8220;The only way in which Palmer (or whoever) may be legally convinced not to comply is if it the decision was based on a reasonable legal interpretation.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would change &#8220;be legally convinced not to comply&#8221; with &#8220;deny requests for information.&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>Steve: In the delete-all-emails incident, Jones discussed Briffa making untruthful statements to Palmer about the existence of Wahl-Briffa correspondence. Palmer may not have been properly informed. Palmer&#8217;s own correspondence has been unfailingly cordial. This could have been feigned, but I got the impression that he was trying to do his job within the rules.<br />
</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve worked for two major telecom (2 of the &quot;big three&quot;) companies in the last 20 years. I&#039;m sure that the older systems in use 20 years ago probably didn&#039;t have much in the way of archiving or saving after deletion from the mailbox, but it seems that since Sarbanes-Oxley, things would have changed. Our company had to be SOX compliant, but we still had to delete email regularly to keep mailbox from filling up (exchange quota). Anything we wanted to save needed to be moved to a local folder, not one on the exchange folders. So it would seem that even if something is &quot;deleted&quot;, it can still be retrieved. Otherwise SOX compliance is meaningless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve worked for two major telecom (2 of the &#8220;big three&#8221;) companies in the last 20 years. I&#8217;m sure that the older systems in use 20 years ago probably didn&#8217;t have much in the way of archiving or saving after deletion from the mailbox, but it seems that since Sarbanes-Oxley, things would have changed. Our company had to be SOX compliant, but we still had to delete email regularly to keep mailbox from filling up (exchange quota). Anything we wanted to save needed to be moved to a local folder, not one on the exchange folders. So it would seem that even if something is &#8220;deleted&#8221;, it can still be retrieved. Otherwise SOX compliance is meaningless.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/28/watch-the-pea-2/#comment-244625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12263#comment-244625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand that &quot;satisfied with&quot; means what you&#039;re saying, but the phrasing is very strange. If Simon&#039;s response below is correct, then it was perhaps a semi-sarcastic question based on the context of the interview at that point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that &#8220;satisfied with&#8221; means what you&#8217;re saying, but the phrasing is very strange. If Simon&#8217;s response below is correct, then it was perhaps a semi-sarcastic question based on the context of the interview at that point.</p>
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