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	<title>Comments on: Strip Bark Growth Pulses</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: cdquarles</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245700</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cdquarles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245700</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245678&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Re:&lt;/a&gt;

I&#039;d also like to point out that all life forms live in a series of &#039;nows&#039;, which include its &lt;strong&gt;local&lt;/strong&gt; environment. The carbon dioxide, water, nitrogen and other nutrient levels that matter to trees are those where the leaves (and roots) are, not the &quot;background&#039; level (or regional or global averages) and these levels for carbon dioxide and water are more variable than the background level is seasonally. Also forgotten is that all life forms modify said local environment to enhance their own survival. Do the reconstructions and/or the people who tout them take survival bias into account? Mann, et al, ignore this to their peril, I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245678" rel="nofollow">Re:</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to point out that all life forms live in a series of &#8216;nows&#8217;, which include its <strong>local</strong> environment. The carbon dioxide, water, nitrogen and other nutrient levels that matter to trees are those where the leaves (and roots) are, not the &#8220;background&#8217; level (or regional or global averages) and these levels for carbon dioxide and water are more variable than the background level is seasonally. Also forgotten is that all life forms modify said local environment to enhance their own survival. Do the reconstructions and/or the people who tout them take survival bias into account? Mann, et al, ignore this to their peril, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: suyts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[suyts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d rather read a book on tea leaf reading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d rather read a book on tea leaf reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Alberts</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Alberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave, it&#039;s &quot;Idso&quot;, not &quot;Itso&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, it&#8217;s &#8220;Idso&#8221;, not &#8220;Itso&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Dardinger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Dardinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 03:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-245678&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eric Anderson (Nov 21 02:20)&lt;/a&gt;, 

Chris,

It&#039;s kind of ironic that the Graybill stripbarked bristlecone pines were collected in response to Itso&#039;s guess that they would be extra responsive to CO2 concentrations.  But as it turns out, the stripbark growth pulses are actually primarily mechanical in cause and peter out as the tree gradually heals.  But the real irony is that the CAGW people have latched onto them and use them as a supposed proof for global warming when they&#039;re not, even though more study has justified Itso&#039;s contention that CO2 does indeed act as a fertiliser for trees.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-245678" rel="nofollow">Eric Anderson (Nov 21 02:20)</a>, </p>
<p>Chris,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s kind of ironic that the Graybill stripbarked bristlecone pines were collected in response to Itso&#8217;s guess that they would be extra responsive to CO2 concentrations.  But as it turns out, the stripbark growth pulses are actually primarily mechanical in cause and peter out as the tree gradually heals.  But the real irony is that the CAGW people have latched onto them and use them as a supposed proof for global warming when they&#8217;re not, even though more study has justified Itso&#8217;s contention that CO2 does indeed act as a fertiliser for trees.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris E</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris E]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 19:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Kuhnkat. I had a quick flick through some of the papers on the website, and there was nothing &#039;odd&#039; that jumped out at me. To properly study a paper and decide whether or not the conclusions are likely to hold outside the boundaries of that particular study is not a simple thing though, so to definitively state whether the papers on your list are &#039;reliable&#039; or not will probably take the global forest science community another few decades. If you&#039;d like to hurry things up, all research grant donations will be gratefully accepted. :)

Most people accept that raising CO2 increases growth, but most of the quantification studies have been done on seedlings so there&#039;s still discussion about how this can be scaled up to full-sized forests, and whether there is an &#039;upper limit&#039; for CO2 fertilisation. Another hot topic is if/when the CO2-inspired growth increase will run into speed limits (often water-related). There&#039;s also evidence that increasing CO2 increases trees&#039; water use efficiency. 

This is all a very current research topic. There are a number of rather sexy forest CO2-fertilisation projects happening around the world now (FACE experiments), but it&#039;s still early days. I would say that anyone who unequivicably says that they know all about it, certainly doesn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kuhnkat. I had a quick flick through some of the papers on the website, and there was nothing &#8216;odd&#8217; that jumped out at me. To properly study a paper and decide whether or not the conclusions are likely to hold outside the boundaries of that particular study is not a simple thing though, so to definitively state whether the papers on your list are &#8216;reliable&#8217; or not will probably take the global forest science community another few decades. If you&#8217;d like to hurry things up, all research grant donations will be gratefully accepted. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Most people accept that raising CO2 increases growth, but most of the quantification studies have been done on seedlings so there&#8217;s still discussion about how this can be scaled up to full-sized forests, and whether there is an &#8216;upper limit&#8217; for CO2 fertilisation. Another hot topic is if/when the CO2-inspired growth increase will run into speed limits (often water-related). There&#8217;s also evidence that increasing CO2 increases trees&#8217; water use efficiency. </p>
<p>This is all a very current research topic. There are a number of rather sexy forest CO2-fertilisation projects happening around the world now (FACE experiments), but it&#8217;s still early days. I would say that anyone who unequivicably says that they know all about it, certainly doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: kuhnkat</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kuhnkat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is the index at CO2Science.org.

http://www.co2science.org/subject/g/subject_g.php

Any idea how reliable the papers on CO2 related growth are that they list?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the index at CO2Science.org.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.co2science.org/subject/g/subject_g.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.co2science.org/subject/g/subject_g.php</a></p>
<p>Any idea how reliable the papers on CO2 related growth are that they list?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris E</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245679</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris E]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245679</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a very good point. Trees don&#039;t care about global average temperatures (whatever they mean exactly), and probably don&#039;t much care about local annual averages either. At certain times of the year a temperature anomaly or trend could (maybe) be detectable in growth, but to conclude that this anomaly or trend is indicative of an change in the annual mean temperature seems to me to be unjustified. At first glance it seems reasonable that a shorter winter could imply a higher annual mean temperature, but I agree that this should be tested rather than assumed. Maybe it&#039;s also plausible that shorter winters imply a lower intra-annual variation, and hence cooler or shorter summers. I dunno, you&#039;ll have to ask a climate scientist. ;-) 

I&#039;ve stratified my climate interpolations by season, which my help a little if the tree-growth data is precise enough. Parts of Austria show &#039;seasonal warming&#039; trends in the linear approximations over the past 50 years, others don&#039;t. Apparent warming in one season may be accompanied by warming in another, or it may not. I have a paper on this in the latest issue of the &#039;Austrian Journal of Forest Science&#039;, but I guess that may be hard to access for most people.

To be honest, I don&#039;t much care about global average temperatures either. I&#039;m interested in why trees seem to be growing faster. Perhaps my work will add something to the climate debate, but it&#039;s not my focus. As for which side of the debate would wave my papers around as evidence and which side would denounce me as an idiot, I don&#039;t know yet. I guess I&#039;ll find out, when the analyses are finished. :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very good point. Trees don&#8217;t care about global average temperatures (whatever they mean exactly), and probably don&#8217;t much care about local annual averages either. At certain times of the year a temperature anomaly or trend could (maybe) be detectable in growth, but to conclude that this anomaly or trend is indicative of an change in the annual mean temperature seems to me to be unjustified. At first glance it seems reasonable that a shorter winter could imply a higher annual mean temperature, but I agree that this should be tested rather than assumed. Maybe it&#8217;s also plausible that shorter winters imply a lower intra-annual variation, and hence cooler or shorter summers. I dunno, you&#8217;ll have to ask a climate scientist. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve stratified my climate interpolations by season, which my help a little if the tree-growth data is precise enough. Parts of Austria show &#8216;seasonal warming&#8217; trends in the linear approximations over the past 50 years, others don&#8217;t. Apparent warming in one season may be accompanied by warming in another, or it may not. I have a paper on this in the latest issue of the &#8216;Austrian Journal of Forest Science&#8217;, but I guess that may be hard to access for most people.</p>
<p>To be honest, I don&#8217;t much care about global average temperatures either. I&#8217;m interested in why trees seem to be growing faster. Perhaps my work will add something to the climate debate, but it&#8217;s not my focus. As for which side of the debate would wave my papers around as evidence and which side would denounce me as an idiot, I don&#8217;t know yet. I guess I&#8217;ll find out, when the analyses are finished. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Anderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 07:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Furthermore, if the concern is global average temperature on some kind of annualized scale (as commonly articulated), and if, as you say, trees are not growing at a particular time of year, or are more sensitive to temperatures at particular times of year, then in any particular year we cannot know that the entire year was warmer or cooler, simply based on growth for the year.

One could of course argue that this should balance out over many years and over a wide enough sample set, but it should at least be acknowledged that that is an assumption, not something that follows from the data itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore, if the concern is global average temperature on some kind of annualized scale (as commonly articulated), and if, as you say, trees are not growing at a particular time of year, or are more sensitive to temperatures at particular times of year, then in any particular year we cannot know that the entire year was warmer or cooler, simply based on growth for the year.</p>
<p>One could of course argue that this should balance out over many years and over a wide enough sample set, but it should at least be acknowledged that that is an assumption, not something that follows from the data itself.</p>
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		<title>By: kuhnkat</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kuhnkat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One is closer to Starbucks?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One is closer to Starbucks?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sleeper</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2010/11/11/strip-bark-growth-pulses/#comment-245659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sleeper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=12347#comment-245659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-245653&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;TAG (Nov 19 21:22)&lt;/a&gt;, 
Bear poop. Somewhat similar to bullsh*t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-245653" rel="nofollow">TAG (Nov 19 21:22)</a>,<br />
Bear poop. Somewhat similar to bullsh*t.</p>
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