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	<title>Comments on: More Mendacity from East Anglia Revealed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: Ryan S</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ryan S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 10:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Times Dec 3rd 2009

&quot;The university at the centre of a climate change row today appointed a former civil servant to head an inquiry into claims of misconduct by its scientists. &quot;

Was there any real doubt that this was a university appointed body that was set up to provide a white-wash? The Times seemed to be under that impression right from the start. I am not sure that there was ever much of an attempt to hide the fact (or at least not one that was very effective). Maybe outside of the UK it seemed different?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Times Dec 3rd 2009</p>
<p>&#8220;The university at the centre of a climate change row today appointed a former civil servant to head an inquiry into claims of misconduct by its scientists. &#8221;</p>
<p>Was there any real doubt that this was a university appointed body that was set up to provide a white-wash? The Times seemed to be under that impression right from the start. I am not sure that there was ever much of an attempt to hide the fact (or at least not one that was very effective). Maybe outside of the UK it seemed different?</p>
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		<title>By: KnR</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KnR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 22:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Work Mann did while it was at UVa  is subject to FOI as that work belongs to UVa and UVa is subject to FOI . Its really that simple , dance all you like you can&#039;t avoid that. The question is why fight so hard and spend so much , given that they been happy to release other&#039;s e-mails to  Greenpeace its clear its not a university policy which is the problem but rather they chosen to make this a &#039;special case&#039; 
The irony is they may be nothing in them , but who now would trust UVa over this given their behavior their always going to suspected of holding stuff back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Work Mann did while it was at UVa  is subject to FOI as that work belongs to UVa and UVa is subject to FOI . Its really that simple , dance all you like you can&#8217;t avoid that. The question is why fight so hard and spend so much , given that they been happy to release other&#8217;s e-mails to  Greenpeace its clear its not a university policy which is the problem but rather they chosen to make this a &#8216;special case&#8217;<br />
The irony is they may be nothing in them , but who now would trust UVa over this given their behavior their always going to suspected of holding stuff back.</p>
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		<title>By: AngusPangus</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AngusPangus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The first part of the redaction in the Acton email reads &quot;Trevor Davies, PVC Research, spoke today to David King and he was most supportive AND WOULD BE PLEASED WERE YOU TO INVITE HIM TO ADVISE.&quot; (my emphasis)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first part of the redaction in the Acton email reads &#8220;Trevor Davies, PVC Research, spoke today to David King and he was most supportive AND WOULD BE PLEASED WERE YOU TO INVITE HIM TO ADVISE.&#8221; (my emphasis)</p>
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		<title>By: AngusPangus</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297338</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AngusPangus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,

what appears to be the original Russell - Acton email (the reply to which you mention in your post) was disclosed as part of the response to an FOI request from David Holland.  It&#039;s dated 2 December 2009, timed 09.02. Interestingly, at point 5, Muir says that he can probably find 15 - 20 days for the work.  A bit further on, he suggests a daily fee of &quot;something in the region of&quot; £1,500 (probably expecting to be knocked down a bit).  This implies a total fee of £22,500 - £30,000 for the job.  Nevertheless, and in direct response to MR&#039;s fee quote, Acton offers an uplift to £40,000.  Bizarre!  Who ever got a quote from a contractor but then offered a third more than the upper limit suggested by the contractor????  Wonder what the University&#039;s fianncial regulations say about paying 133% of a quoted price?  Presumably, such a practice is to be discouraged in order to avoid accusations of buying favours.

The email is in the document &quot;Russell-Acton_091202_red&quot;, which itself is in a folder called &quot;Acton-Russell correspondence final&quot; in the 9.6MB zip file at this link:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/communications_between_uea_russe#comment-19041]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>what appears to be the original Russell &#8211; Acton email (the reply to which you mention in your post) was disclosed as part of the response to an FOI request from David Holland.  It&#8217;s dated 2 December 2009, timed 09.02. Interestingly, at point 5, Muir says that he can probably find 15 &#8211; 20 days for the work.  A bit further on, he suggests a daily fee of &#8220;something in the region of&#8221; £1,500 (probably expecting to be knocked down a bit).  This implies a total fee of £22,500 &#8211; £30,000 for the job.  Nevertheless, and in direct response to MR&#8217;s fee quote, Acton offers an uplift to £40,000.  Bizarre!  Who ever got a quote from a contractor but then offered a third more than the upper limit suggested by the contractor????  Wonder what the University&#8217;s fianncial regulations say about paying 133% of a quoted price?  Presumably, such a practice is to be discouraged in order to avoid accusations of buying favours.</p>
<p>The email is in the document &#8220;Russell-Acton_091202_red&#8221;, which itself is in a folder called &#8220;Acton-Russell correspondence final&#8221; in the 9.6MB zip file at this link:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/communications_between_uea_russe#comment-19041" rel="nofollow">http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/communications_between_uea_russe#comment-19041</a></p>
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		<title>By: Craig Loehle</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297294</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Loehle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re Nick Stokes comment on not searching out books you&#039;ve lent.
consider that you sent your files to be organized to an independent business and then get a court order to produce them.  You can not claim you &quot;don&#039;t have them&quot; because you still own them.
In the context, the work products of a subcontractor are &quot;works for hire&quot; and belong to the contractor (UEA).  That UEA did not ask for them does not nullify this ownership.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Nick Stokes comment on not searching out books you&#8217;ve lent.<br />
consider that you sent your files to be organized to an independent business and then get a court order to produce them.  You can not claim you &#8220;don&#8217;t have them&#8221; because you still own them.<br />
In the context, the work products of a subcontractor are &#8220;works for hire&#8221; and belong to the contractor (UEA).  That UEA did not ask for them does not nullify this ownership.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Loehle</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297293</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Loehle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe the relevant legal concept is &quot;work for hire&quot;.  Any subcontractor doing work usually is and should be told that all work products for the contract belong to the contracting agency.  This goes for engineers, programmers, anyone.  There are work products here.

re Nick Stokes assertion that one would not be required to track down books you loaned, try this one.  Your files need organizing, so you pack them up and take them to an independent secretarial service who gets them in shape.  Now you get an FOIA request for them.  You can not claim you &quot;don&#039;t have them&quot; just because they are in the possession of a private contractor.  You are still the owner and need to retrieve them.  Just so with the UEA and Muir Russell panel materials.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the relevant legal concept is &#8220;work for hire&#8221;.  Any subcontractor doing work usually is and should be told that all work products for the contract belong to the contracting agency.  This goes for engineers, programmers, anyone.  There are work products here.</p>
<p>re Nick Stokes assertion that one would not be required to track down books you loaned, try this one.  Your files need organizing, so you pack them up and take them to an independent secretarial service who gets them in shape.  Now you get an FOIA request for them.  You can not claim you &#8220;don&#8217;t have them&#8221; just because they are in the possession of a private contractor.  You are still the owner and need to retrieve them.  Just so with the UEA and Muir Russell panel materials.</p>
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		<title>By: Venter</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297291</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Venter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Correction, MM is not going to get away without the truth being found out]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, MM is not going to get away without the truth being found out</p>
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		<title>By: Venter</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Venter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cucci will first see what UVa have and if anything of UVa was carried over by MM to PSU he&#039;ll decide how to tackle it.

MM is not going to get away from the truth being found out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cucci will first see what UVa have and if anything of UVa was carried over by MM to PSU he&#8217;ll decide how to tackle it.</p>
<p>MM is not going to get away from the truth being found out.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297288</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 10:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-297283&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bobdenton (Jul 5 02:42)&lt;/a&gt;, 
Bob, Goodness knows where this response will end up. But here goes:
Your proposition was that:
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Independent contractors often use tools and materials supplied by the employer and use them to produce a product. The tools, the product and any waste are the property of the employer, even while they are in the possession of the contractor. It may be that by analogy, the information in the possession of the review panel remains the property of UEA and is therefore dis-closable under FOIA.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
That test of ownership does not imply &quot;holding on behalf of&quot;. UEA would not have expected to get back any of those items held by review members.

A variant on your lawnmower analogy - suppose you get a FOI request for any book you have that mentions Michael Mann. Well, you look through your bookshelves. But do you have to chase up every book you have ever lent? 

This is actually happening with MM. I&#039;m sure he took lots of things to PSU that your test would say are owned by UVa (eg copies of emails). But no-one (not even Cucci) seems to think they are subject to Va FOI or CIDs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-297283" rel="nofollow">bobdenton (Jul 5 02:42)</a>,<br />
Bob, Goodness knows where this response will end up. But here goes:<br />
Your proposition was that:<br />
<i>&#8220;Independent contractors often use tools and materials supplied by the employer and use them to produce a product. The tools, the product and any waste are the property of the employer, even while they are in the possession of the contractor. It may be that by analogy, the information in the possession of the review panel remains the property of UEA and is therefore dis-closable under FOIA.&#8221;</i><br />
That test of ownership does not imply &#8220;holding on behalf of&#8221;. UEA would not have expected to get back any of those items held by review members.</p>
<p>A variant on your lawnmower analogy &#8211; suppose you get a FOI request for any book you have that mentions Michael Mann. Well, you look through your bookshelves. But do you have to chase up every book you have ever lent? </p>
<p>This is actually happening with MM. I&#8217;m sure he took lots of things to PSU that your test would say are owned by UVa (eg copies of emails). But no-one (not even Cucci) seems to think they are subject to Va FOI or CIDs.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/07/02/more-mendacity-from-east-anglia-revealed/#comment-297287</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 09:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14025#comment-297287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob was postulating a situation where records held by (presumably) Muir Russell or colleagues might be &quot;owned&quot; by UEA.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob was postulating a situation where records held by (presumably) Muir Russell or colleagues might be &#8220;owned&#8221; by UEA.</p>
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