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	<title>Comments on: Erice 2011</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: David Weisman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Weisman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But, you were so indignant when PNAS tried to hold Lindzen to a higher standard than they had held some other scientists.  Surely you wouldn&#039;t want him held to a higher archival standard?

I understand you concentrate on examining the statistical work of IPCC papers, I think you said somewhere because they are the papers governments should or will use in their decision making.  Do I understand you&#039;re not concerned with examining the statistics of Lindzen and Choi critically, but you are concerned with discussing their archival standards?  Or is this just a personal note, like squash scores?

&lt;strong&gt;
Steve- there are lots of things that I&#039;d like to have time and energy to do. Unfortunately, I do get tired. 
&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, you were so indignant when PNAS tried to hold Lindzen to a higher standard than they had held some other scientists.  Surely you wouldn&#8217;t want him held to a higher archival standard?</p>
<p>I understand you concentrate on examining the statistical work of IPCC papers, I think you said somewhere because they are the papers governments should or will use in their decision making.  Do I understand you&#8217;re not concerned with examining the statistics of Lindzen and Choi critically, but you are concerned with discussing their archival standards?  Or is this just a personal note, like squash scores?</p>
<p><strong><br />
Steve- there are lots of things that I&#8217;d like to have time and energy to do. Unfortunately, I do get tired.<br />
</strong></p>
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		<title>By: David Jay</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301835</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Jay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Information Cascade&quot; sounds a lot less threatening than &quot;popular delusion and the madness of crowds&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Information Cascade&#8221; sounds a lot less threatening than &#8220;popular delusion and the madness of crowds&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Sherrington</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Sherrington]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 01:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ross writes, &quot;It was a classic case of experts who find that within the areas where they have detailed knowledge of the AGW issue they find the evidence wobbly and problematic, but assume it’s solid everywhere else.&quot; That&#039;s a neat way to express it.

One of the hard-to-answer arguments increasingly used Down Under is &quot;Can you imagine the improbability of scientists word wide colluding to push false science?&quot; Apart from scripts from PR firms, I don&#039;t see overt collusion, but other mechanisms can give similar outcomes. 

Example - when rumours sweep stock exchanges, plus old examples like tulip mania. Many investors and tulip buyers knew precious little about the subject in depth. A few specialists did, whether right or wrong, and their words were taken as encouragement to be rash. It&#039;s not so organised, but it sure gains momentum.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ross writes, &#8220;It was a classic case of experts who find that within the areas where they have detailed knowledge of the AGW issue they find the evidence wobbly and problematic, but assume it’s solid everywhere else.&#8221; That&#8217;s a neat way to express it.</p>
<p>One of the hard-to-answer arguments increasingly used Down Under is &#8220;Can you imagine the improbability of scientists word wide colluding to push false science?&#8221; Apart from scripts from PR firms, I don&#8217;t see overt collusion, but other mechanisms can give similar outcomes. </p>
<p>Example &#8211; when rumours sweep stock exchanges, plus old examples like tulip mania. Many investors and tulip buyers knew precious little about the subject in depth. A few specialists did, whether right or wrong, and their words were taken as encouragement to be rash. It&#8217;s not so organised, but it sure gains momentum.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301778</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301778</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ahem, that&#039;s &#039;as Nature reveals her secrets&#039;.  What am I, looking for trouble here?
===========]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahem, that&#8217;s &#8216;as Nature reveals her secrets&#8217;.  What am I, looking for trouble here?<br />
===========</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301777</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301777</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Continued conversation.  Gore is exactly right in his comparison with the diminution of racist talk, but he is despicable for playing that joker card.  As Nature reveals its secrets, CAGW will fail in conversation.  We can hope.

The financial and political catastrophe that this artifice created will dwarf that of the South Sea Bubble.  That&#039;s South Atlantic, a surprise to many.
======]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Continued conversation.  Gore is exactly right in his comparison with the diminution of racist talk, but he is despicable for playing that joker card.  As Nature reveals its secrets, CAGW will fail in conversation.  We can hope.</p>
<p>The financial and political catastrophe that this artifice created will dwarf that of the South Sea Bubble.  That&#8217;s South Atlantic, a surprise to many.<br />
======</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Drake</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Drake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quite. When this lady mentioned her doubts about the breathing together of so many scientists I at once went to popular delusion and the madness of crowds - in other words, I used those terms explicitly. She clearly wasn&#039;t offended but she also wasn&#039;t convinced. And I think the AGW &#039;consensus&#039; is different from say, the South Sea Bubble, for exactly the reason Ross gives. We have genuine experts involved and they know that the AGW argument has its problems in their own area but assume it&#039;s solid everywhere else. Judy Curry is notable for coming out of this intellectual straightjacket, which she admits she was in around 2007. The consensus is nothing like as strong as it seems - a corollary is that scientists are not as corrupted as is sometimes painted. But how to explain this to someone intelligent, responsible for implementing policy and genuinely interested. That is my question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite. When this lady mentioned her doubts about the breathing together of so many scientists I at once went to popular delusion and the madness of crowds &#8211; in other words, I used those terms explicitly. She clearly wasn&#8217;t offended but she also wasn&#8217;t convinced. And I think the AGW &#8216;consensus&#8217; is different from say, the South Sea Bubble, for exactly the reason Ross gives. We have genuine experts involved and they know that the AGW argument has its problems in their own area but assume it&#8217;s solid everywhere else. Judy Curry is notable for coming out of this intellectual straightjacket, which she admits she was in around 2007. The consensus is nothing like as strong as it seems &#8211; a corollary is that scientists are not as corrupted as is sometimes painted. But how to explain this to someone intelligent, responsible for implementing policy and genuinely interested. That is my question.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301772</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is an &#039;Extraordinary Popular Delusion and Madness of the Crowd&#039;.  Sure, there are those who breathe together, but the racketeering is going to be difficult to distinguish from the madness.

It is human culture imposing an artifice on Nature and on Human Nature.  It will inevitably fail, and at great cost.
=========================]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is an &#8216;Extraordinary Popular Delusion and Madness of the Crowd&#8217;.  Sure, there are those who breathe together, but the racketeering is going to be difficult to distinguish from the madness.</p>
<p>It is human culture imposing an artifice on Nature and on Human Nature.  It will inevitably fail, and at great cost.<br />
=========================</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Drake</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Drake]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;It was a classic case of experts who find that within the areas where they have detailed knowledge of the AGW issue they find the evidence wobbly and problematic, but assume it’s solid everywhere else.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I had a pretty interesting conversation recently in a social context with a woman who had just resigned, to do a masters in international politics, from a fairly senior role in one of our big departments of state which concerns itself with AGW mitigation. (One of the top three, I would think, but not DECC.)

She listened to me politely and told a mutual friend afterwards that she was impressed with my breadth of knowledge of the issue. But she couldn&#039;t believe that all those scientists were conspiring to deceive us.

Nor are they. I wish I had a better grasp of how to communicate effectively what Ross has put so succinctly here. I found Larry Solomon&#039;s book The Deniers useful on this. Where else is this argument about the misleading nature of the AGW consensus (because it so often involves doubts in one&#039;s specific area of expertise) laid out in policymaker-friendly terms?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It was a classic case of experts who find that within the areas where they have detailed knowledge of the AGW issue they find the evidence wobbly and problematic, but assume it’s solid everywhere else.</p></blockquote>
<p>I had a pretty interesting conversation recently in a social context with a woman who had just resigned, to do a masters in international politics, from a fairly senior role in one of our big departments of state which concerns itself with AGW mitigation. (One of the top three, I would think, but not DECC.)</p>
<p>She listened to me politely and told a mutual friend afterwards that she was impressed with my breadth of knowledge of the issue. But she couldn&#8217;t believe that all those scientists were conspiring to deceive us.</p>
<p>Nor are they. I wish I had a better grasp of how to communicate effectively what Ross has put so succinctly here. I found Larry Solomon&#8217;s book The Deniers useful on this. Where else is this argument about the misleading nature of the AGW consensus (because it so often involves doubts in one&#8217;s specific area of expertise) laid out in policymaker-friendly terms?</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301695</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid it will take global cooling to break the fever, and that&#039;s not a pleasant thought.
==========]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid it will take global cooling to break the fever, and that&#8217;s not a pleasant thought.<br />
==========</p>
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		<title>By: Scottish Sceptic</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/08/26/erice-2011/#comment-301689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scottish Sceptic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14482#comment-301689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve, do you really thin it was a coincidence that you were otherwise preoccupied when the CERN paper came out?

But, personally I think their timing will completely backfire, because it will just enrage those closest to the projects to see how political this became.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, do you really thin it was a coincidence that you were otherwise preoccupied when the CERN paper came out?</p>
<p>But, personally I think their timing will completely backfire, because it will just enrage those closest to the projects to see how political this became.</p>
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