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	<title>Comments on: The Stone in Trenberth&#8217;s Shoe</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 15:32:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Skiphil</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-400746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skiphil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 22:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-400746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-400744&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Skiphil (Feb 17 17:11)&lt;/a&gt;, 

OT to this thread but another case for curious climate science reviews, perhaps.  Editor Hargreaves on contentious review process:
  
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earth-syst-dynam-discuss.net/3/C276/2012/esdd-3-C276-2012.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Editor comments on &quot;odd behavior&quot; of critical reviewer of Masters (2012)&lt;/a&gt; 

Interactive comment on “On the determination of
the global cloud feedback from satellite
measurements” by T. Masters

J. C. Hargreaves (Editor)

Received and published: 7 August 2012

[emphasis added]
&lt;blockquote&gt;
After the first reviews, the peer review process at ESD Discussions is not published
online until the paper is finally accepted or rejected for ESD. I would like to see the
review process made more open, as &lt;b&gt;this contentious paper elicted some odd behaviour
from some of those involved, which made the editing task quite difficult.
So - for this paper we had 3 rounds of Major Revision in total. Finally I decided that
despite continued calls to reject the paper, one reviewer had not provided the incisive
criticism which would compel rejection.&lt;/b&gt; The other two reviewers accepted the paper.
Although I am by no means a specialist in the subject of cloud feedback, I think the
manuscript makes some valuable points, and I finally decided to accept the revised
version for ESD.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-400744" rel="nofollow">Skiphil (Feb 17 17:11)</a>, </p>
<p>OT to this thread but another case for curious climate science reviews, perhaps.  Editor Hargreaves on contentious review process:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.earth-syst-dynam-discuss.net/3/C276/2012/esdd-3-C276-2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">Editor comments on &#8220;odd behavior&#8221; of critical reviewer of Masters (2012)</a> </p>
<p>Interactive comment on “On the determination of<br />
the global cloud feedback from satellite<br />
measurements” by T. Masters</p>
<p>J. C. Hargreaves (Editor)</p>
<p>Received and published: 7 August 2012</p>
<p>[emphasis added]</p>
<blockquote><p>
After the first reviews, the peer review process at ESD Discussions is not published<br />
online until the paper is finally accepted or rejected for ESD. I would like to see the<br />
review process made more open, as <b>this contentious paper elicted some odd behaviour<br />
from some of those involved, which made the editing task quite difficult.<br />
So &#8211; for this paper we had 3 rounds of Major Revision in total. Finally I decided that<br />
despite continued calls to reject the paper, one reviewer had not provided the incisive<br />
criticism which would compel rejection.</b> The other two reviewers accepted the paper.<br />
Although I am by no means a specialist in the subject of cloud feedback, I think the<br />
manuscript makes some valuable points, and I finally decided to accept the revised<br />
version for ESD.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Skiphil</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-400744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skiphil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 22:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-400744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-302305&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McIntyre (Sep 7 07:39)&lt;/a&gt;, 

It may not be possible yet to judge cloud feedbacks overall.  I wonder if anyone here has noticed this article from last summer, which argues that the data currently available do not rule out either positive or negative overall feedbacks from clouds…. i.e., as with a lot of the paleo proxy debates, it may be that the data available to date do not resolve the key issues (a provisional conclusion which may appeal to many who are not already “team” players:  [my previous comment disappeared, I hope there is no duplication]

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/esd-3-97-2012.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;On the determination of the global cloud feedback from satellite measurements, by T. Masters of UCLA&lt;/a&gt; 

published 23 August 2012

Earth Syst. Dynam., 3, 97–107, 2012
doi:10.5194/esd-3-97-2012

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&quot;Overall, there is little correlation between the changes in the 1CRF and surface temperatures on these timescales, suggesting that the net effect of clouds varies during this time period quite apart from global temperature changes. Given the large uncertainties generated from this method, the limited data over this period are insufficient to rule out either the positive feedback present in most climate models or a strong negative cloud feedback.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-302305" rel="nofollow">Steve McIntyre (Sep 7 07:39)</a>, </p>
<p>It may not be possible yet to judge cloud feedbacks overall.  I wonder if anyone here has noticed this article from last summer, which argues that the data currently available do not rule out either positive or negative overall feedbacks from clouds…. i.e., as with a lot of the paleo proxy debates, it may be that the data available to date do not resolve the key issues (a provisional conclusion which may appeal to many who are not already “team” players:  [my previous comment disappeared, I hope there is no duplication]</p>
<p><a href="http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/esd-3-97-2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">On the determination of the global cloud feedback from satellite measurements, by T. Masters of UCLA</a> </p>
<p>published 23 August 2012</p>
<p>Earth Syst. Dynam., 3, 97–107, 2012<br />
doi:10.5194/esd-3-97-2012</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;Overall, there is little correlation between the changes in the 1CRF and surface temperatures on these timescales, suggesting that the net effect of clouds varies during this time period quite apart from global temperature changes. Given the large uncertainties generated from this method, the limited data over this period are insufficient to rule out either the positive feedback present in most climate models or a strong negative cloud feedback.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Skiphil</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-400742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Skiphil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 22:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-400742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-302173&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Craig Loehle (Sep 6 13:37)&lt;/a&gt;, 

I wonder if anyone here has noticed this article from last summer, which seems to argue that the data currently available do not rule out either positive or negative overall feedbacks from clouds.... i.e., as with a lot of the paleo proxy debates, it may be that the data available to date do not resolve the key issues (a provisional conclusion which may appeal to many who are not already &quot;team&quot; players:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/esd-3-97-2012.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;On the determination of the global cloud feedback from satellite measurements, by T. Masters of UCLA&lt;/a&gt; 

published 23 August 2012

Earth Syst. Dynam., 3, 97–107, 2012
www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/
doi:10.5194/esd-3-97-2012

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&quot;Overall, there is little correlation between the changes in the 1CRF and surface temperatures on these timescales, suggesting that the net effect of clouds varies during this time period quite apart from global temperature changes. Given the large uncertainties generated from this method, the limited data over this period are insufficient to rule out either the positive feedback present in most climate models or a strong negative cloud feedback.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <a href="#comment-302173" rel="nofollow">Craig Loehle (Sep 6 13:37)</a>, </p>
<p>I wonder if anyone here has noticed this article from last summer, which seems to argue that the data currently available do not rule out either positive or negative overall feedbacks from clouds&#8230;. i.e., as with a lot of the paleo proxy debates, it may be that the data available to date do not resolve the key issues (a provisional conclusion which may appeal to many who are not already &#8220;team&#8221; players:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/esd-3-97-2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">On the determination of the global cloud feedback from satellite measurements, by T. Masters of UCLA</a> </p>
<p>published 23 August 2012</p>
<p>Earth Syst. Dynam., 3, 97–107, 2012<br />
<a href="http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/" rel="nofollow">http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/3/97/2012/</a><br />
doi:10.5194/esd-3-97-2012</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;Overall, there is little correlation between the changes in the 1CRF and surface temperatures on these timescales, suggesting that the net effect of clouds varies during this time period quite apart from global temperature changes. Given the large uncertainties generated from this method, the limited data over this period are insufficient to rule out either the positive feedback present in most climate models or a strong negative cloud feedback.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David A</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-312198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-312198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Certainly any lag over water would be greater then over land.  Logically any reduction in SWR over the oceans, where the residence time of the enrgies inolved is greater, could potentially have an intial postive (warming) feedback to the atmosphere, but a negative feedback of greater magnitude to the oceans due to the reduction in SWR.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly any lag over water would be greater then over land.  Logically any reduction in SWR over the oceans, where the residence time of the enrgies inolved is greater, could potentially have an intial postive (warming) feedback to the atmosphere, but a negative feedback of greater magnitude to the oceans due to the reduction in SWR.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Spencers och Braswells fasplansanalys från 2010 står stark – låg klimatkänslighet antyds &#124; The Climate Scam</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-312170</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spencers och Braswells fasplansanalys från 2010 står stark – låg klimatkänslighet antyds &#124; The Climate Scam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2011 05:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-312170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] till Spencers och Braswells data: http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/ [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] till Spencers och Braswells data: <a href="http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/" rel="nofollow">http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/</a> [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: M. Simon</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-302926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M. Simon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 06:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-302926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Uh. I seem to recall that cloudiness during the day reflects sunlight. 

And clouds at night act as a blanket. (Well they act as a blanket during the day too but the reflection of sunlight is more important). 

In any case if we are looking at clouds as energy reflectors shouldn&#039;t that be a consideration? i.e. Only clouds on the sunny side (up?) affect energy input. And clouds at noon are more important than clouds at sunset.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh. I seem to recall that cloudiness during the day reflects sunlight. </p>
<p>And clouds at night act as a blanket. (Well they act as a blanket during the day too but the reflection of sunlight is more important). </p>
<p>In any case if we are looking at clouds as energy reflectors shouldn&#8217;t that be a consideration? i.e. Only clouds on the sunny side (up?) affect energy input. And clouds at noon are more important than clouds at sunset.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Die Klimawissenschaft igelt sich mehr und mehr ein &#124;</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-302875</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Die Klimawissenschaft igelt sich mehr und mehr ein &#124;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2011 07:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-302875</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] vorhandene Fehler keineswegs ein derartiges Vorgehen rechtfertige (Roger Pielke Sr., Judith Curry, Steven McIntyre). Roy Spencer selbst erklärt auf seinem Weblog, warum die Vorwürfe gegenüber seiner [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] vorhandene Fehler keineswegs ein derartiges Vorgehen rechtfertige (Roger Pielke Sr., Judith Curry, Steven McIntyre). Roy Spencer selbst erklärt auf seinem Weblog, warum die Vorwürfe gegenüber seiner [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sky</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-302842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-302842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nature pays no attention to how we think about its various mechanisms and processes.  It operates by its own rules.  Invoking analogies, parsing words and tap-dancing around dimensionality issues doesn&#039;t get you any closer to establishing what those rules are.  

Temperature is no doubt an important PARAMETER, but the whole idea of an INTENSIVE variable being a forcing or a bona fide feedback in any physical system lacks any physical foundation. The commonplace misapplication of Stefan-Boltzman to convert all temperatures to EXTENSIVE variables doesn&#039;t change the basic issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nature pays no attention to how we think about its various mechanisms and processes.  It operates by its own rules.  Invoking analogies, parsing words and tap-dancing around dimensionality issues doesn&#8217;t get you any closer to establishing what those rules are.  </p>
<p>Temperature is no doubt an important PARAMETER, but the whole idea of an INTENSIVE variable being a forcing or a bona fide feedback in any physical system lacks any physical foundation. The commonplace misapplication of Stefan-Boltzman to convert all temperatures to EXTENSIVE variables doesn&#8217;t change the basic issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David L. Hagen</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-302749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David L. Hagen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 02:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-302749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Leif - will read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Leif &#8211; will read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/06/the-stone-in-trenberths-shoe/#comment-302741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Stokes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 02:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14521#comment-302741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops - it&#039;s a long time since I was soldering transistors. For emitter read collector.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops &#8211; it&#8217;s a long time since I was soldering transistors. For emitter read collector.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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