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	<title>Comments on: Monthly Centering and Climate Sensitivity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-308624</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-308624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;It seems to me that there is also an issue of accounting for those deltas over the amount of time that they are in effect (the orbit time spent near perihelion (in days or months) is less than than the same number of days/months near aphelion).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


... transform true anomaly to mean anomaly to have a parameter that does vary linearly in time... By re-reading the lecture notes and with little programming I got one example out:

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.info/data/uc/Insolation.png&quot; alt=&quot;Insol1&quot; /&gt;

Computed insolation per month / m2 for Trondheim, Norway,  shifted one month (ad hoc, some delay is ok I guess) and then LS-fitted to observed temperature averages (Jones data). I did the same for circular orbit, and it seems that summer is too warm in that case:

&lt;img src=&quot;http://www.climateaudit.info/data/uc/Insolation_d.png&quot; alt=&quot;Insol_d&quot; /&gt;
The eccentricity effect is very weak, axial tilt of course dominates. And these are not additive but multiplicative factors, so it is not easy to extract the global eccentricity effect out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It seems to me that there is also an issue of accounting for those deltas over the amount of time that they are in effect (the orbit time spent near perihelion (in days or months) is less than than the same number of days/months near aphelion).
</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230; transform true anomaly to mean anomaly to have a parameter that does vary linearly in time&#8230; By re-reading the lecture notes and with little programming I got one example out:</p>
<p><img src="http://www.climateaudit.info/data/uc/Insolation.png" alt="Insol1" /></p>
<p>Computed insolation per month / m2 for Trondheim, Norway,  shifted one month (ad hoc, some delay is ok I guess) and then LS-fitted to observed temperature averages (Jones data). I did the same for circular orbit, and it seems that summer is too warm in that case:</p>
<p><img src="http://www.climateaudit.info/data/uc/Insolation_d.png" alt="Insol_d" /><br />
The eccentricity effect is very weak, axial tilt of course dominates. And these are not additive but multiplicative factors, so it is not easy to extract the global eccentricity effect out.</p>
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		<title>By: Measuring Sensitivity using the FG06 method with a GFDL CM2.1 control run &#171; Troy&#039;s Scratchpad</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-308614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Measuring Sensitivity using the FG06 method with a GFDL CM2.1 control run &#171; Troy&#039;s Scratchpad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-308614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (that is, they don’t take monthly anomalies) to show the radiative response.  Steve McIntyre has explored this as well.  The result is that you get higher r^2 values, but I think this may inflate the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (that is, they don’t take monthly anomalies) to show the radiative response.  Steve McIntyre has explored this as well.  The result is that you get higher r^2 values, but I think this may inflate the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gunnar</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306651</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gunnar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306651</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt; except CO2 in the atmosphere

However, because of Henry&#039;s law, C02 is in a cycle. It is regularly absorbed by water in polar regions and also expelled from water in equatorial regions. It can&#039;t really accumulate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; except CO2 in the atmosphere</p>
<p>However, because of Henry&#8217;s law, C02 is in a cycle. It is regularly absorbed by water in polar regions and also expelled from water in equatorial regions. It can&#8217;t really accumulate.</p>
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		<title>By: johnfpittman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnfpittman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did not mind the missing smiley. I like to point out that there are real reasons to take a model with a big grain of salt. Even more so, those that use a methodological approach incompletely. And those that extrapolate even with proven methodology are suspect, much less those extrapolate that don&#039;t. So if it is overkill. I am a bit sorry, but not that much ;) .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did not mind the missing smiley. I like to point out that there are real reasons to take a model with a big grain of salt. Even more so, those that use a methodological approach incompletely. And those that extrapolate even with proven methodology are suspect, much less those extrapolate that don&#8217;t. So if it is overkill. I am a bit sorry, but not that much <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  .</p>
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		<title>By: cdquarles</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cdquarles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, John, thanks for replying. I was being a bit facetious as well as serious. I should not have left off the ;) in my post.  I am aware of Dr. Browning&#039;s posts. 

I also have a few points of contention with respect to the premises and axioms underlying these papers which seem to be in fundamental disagreement with the real system. Earth has a weather system. Our climate is a statistical summary of previously realized weather. How the statistical model gets specified is important. 

We also live in and adapt to the atmospheric surface boundary layer and that&#039;s where the weather action is. These papers being discussed mostly don&#039;t seem to take that into account. Is it really being too purist to expect the &#039;experts&#039; to have done the foundational work showing that their procedures are justified? Just who&#039;s fooling whom here :), really?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, John, thanks for replying. I was being a bit facetious as well as serious. I should not have left off the <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  in my post.  I am aware of Dr. Browning&#8217;s posts. </p>
<p>I also have a few points of contention with respect to the premises and axioms underlying these papers which seem to be in fundamental disagreement with the real system. Earth has a weather system. Our climate is a statistical summary of previously realized weather. How the statistical model gets specified is important. </p>
<p>We also live in and adapt to the atmospheric surface boundary layer and that&#8217;s where the weather action is. These papers being discussed mostly don&#8217;t seem to take that into account. Is it really being too purist to expect the &#8216;experts&#8217; to have done the foundational work showing that their procedures are justified? Just who&#8217;s fooling whom here <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> , really?</p>
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		<title>By: johnfpittman</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnfpittman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CDQ, Nick is dissembling again. There are a couple of really good threads on CA archives with Dr Browning on his and Dr Kreiss and Gavel&#039;s work. 

What Browning and Kreiss show mathematically is that it is physically impossible to extend the time one of these models are run before the exponentially increase in errors swamp the matrix. The amount of time depends on the grid size and step size. Where as Nick is calling it &quot;purist&quot;, it is a physical limitation inherrent to the too large grid size and too large time step.

In order that they get around this, modellers use hyperviscosity and adiabatic adjustment in order according to Dr. Gavin or his source to prevent negative mass and/or energy in a grid. This makes the models engineering applications more so than physical (physics) applications. However, note that there is just one run of the independent actual response instead of the 10&#039;s of thousands that the engineering models require to validate the usefullness. Also note, extrapolation, which is what all the GCM&#039;s do, is known to not neccessarily correct, and requires a separate validation. In other words as two modellers stated in the the peer reveiwed literature, it will take 130 or more years to show that a 100 year model was correct, Tebaldi and Knutti.

PS I am bad at spelling, my apologies if I have erred.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CDQ, Nick is dissembling again. There are a couple of really good threads on CA archives with Dr Browning on his and Dr Kreiss and Gavel&#8217;s work. </p>
<p>What Browning and Kreiss show mathematically is that it is physically impossible to extend the time one of these models are run before the exponentially increase in errors swamp the matrix. The amount of time depends on the grid size and step size. Where as Nick is calling it &#8220;purist&#8221;, it is a physical limitation inherrent to the too large grid size and too large time step.</p>
<p>In order that they get around this, modellers use hyperviscosity and adiabatic adjustment in order according to Dr. Gavin or his source to prevent negative mass and/or energy in a grid. This makes the models engineering applications more so than physical (physics) applications. However, note that there is just one run of the independent actual response instead of the 10&#8242;s of thousands that the engineering models require to validate the usefullness. Also note, extrapolation, which is what all the GCM&#8217;s do, is known to not neccessarily correct, and requires a separate validation. In other words as two modellers stated in the the peer reveiwed literature, it will take 130 or more years to show that a 100 year model was correct, Tebaldi and Knutti.</p>
<p>PS I am bad at spelling, my apologies if I have erred.</p>
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		<title>By: UC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[UC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Input signal with large variation (due to elliptic orbit) is modulated by the clouds and enters the thermal energy storages of Earth. In addition, the angle of arrival changes all the time, and you need Nautical Almanac to track the GP, geographical position of the Sun. Motion of GP causes  daily cycles, changes in hours of daylight, and seasons. Too difficult to handle all this, it is much easier to downsample the observed data to monthly averages (matrix D) and then left-multiply it by M (as in the above code) and make gridded average of the result (matrix G). All you need to do is to make sure that the linear transformation G*M*D will not affect your results (physical or statistical). For purely statistical arguments it is quite easy to show the effects, as the transformation is linear (something I&#039;ve been working on). Steve&#039;s result is more on the physical side. 

Now that we have the argument &#039;Natural factors cannot explain G*M*D*observations&#039;, it is interesting to see what we can say about the actual observations. G*M*D is not invertible, but some statistical statements *) can possibly be  backtracked into the observation domain.

*) such as one in IPCC AR4WG1, &quot;The Durbin Watson D-statistic (not shown) for the residuals, after allowing for first-order serial correlation, never indicates significant positive serial correlation.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Input signal with large variation (due to elliptic orbit) is modulated by the clouds and enters the thermal energy storages of Earth. In addition, the angle of arrival changes all the time, and you need Nautical Almanac to track the GP, geographical position of the Sun. Motion of GP causes  daily cycles, changes in hours of daylight, and seasons. Too difficult to handle all this, it is much easier to downsample the observed data to monthly averages (matrix D) and then left-multiply it by M (as in the above code) and make gridded average of the result (matrix G). All you need to do is to make sure that the linear transformation G*M*D will not affect your results (physical or statistical). For purely statistical arguments it is quite easy to show the effects, as the transformation is linear (something I&#8217;ve been working on). Steve&#8217;s result is more on the physical side. </p>
<p>Now that we have the argument &#8216;Natural factors cannot explain G*M*D*observations&#8217;, it is interesting to see what we can say about the actual observations. G*M*D is not invertible, but some statistical statements *) can possibly be  backtracked into the observation domain.</p>
<p>*) such as one in IPCC AR4WG1, &#8220;The Durbin Watson D-statistic (not shown) for the residuals, after allowing for first-order serial correlation, never indicates significant positive serial correlation.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: P. Solar</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P. Solar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 19:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For the record, there does seem to be some absolute temp data available for HadCRUT

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/absolute.nc]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, there does seem to be some absolute temp data available for HadCRUT</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/absolute.nc" rel="nofollow">http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/absolute.nc</a></p>
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		<title>By: cdquarles</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cdquarles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, Nick, then maybe you (or your colleagues) should do the necessary experiments in a reproducible manner that demonstrate this and/or show me the studies that do so, because I am not aware of any that do show that the ability to meaningfully average, as it has been done in paleoclimatology, is based upon conservation laws. TIA 

PS: It has been many years since I took physical chemistry, but I&#039;d be willing to do some review in order to get up to speed on this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Nick, then maybe you (or your colleagues) should do the necessary experiments in a reproducible manner that demonstrate this and/or show me the studies that do so, because I am not aware of any that do show that the ability to meaningfully average, as it has been done in paleoclimatology, is based upon conservation laws. TIA </p>
<p>PS: It has been many years since I took physical chemistry, but I&#8217;d be willing to do some review in order to get up to speed on this.</p>
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		<title>By: P.Solar</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/28/monthly-centering-and-climate-sensitivity/#comment-306449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P.Solar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=14663#comment-306449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/06/high-level-cloud-and-surface-temperature/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/06/high-level-cloud-and-surface-temperature/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/06/high-level-cloud-and-surface-temperature/</a></p>
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