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	<title>Comments on: UEA Submission to Tribunal on Wahl FOI</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/</link>
	<description>by Steve McIntyre</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 18:23:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Steven Mosher</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-337410</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steven Mosher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-337410</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[they attempt to point away from the real reason and the real persons involved.
 reverse the arrow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they attempt to point away from the real reason and the real persons involved.<br />
 reverse the arrow.</p>
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		<title>By: BillC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BillC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 14:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[hard to hit a puck with that one]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hard to hit a puck with that one</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BillC</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BillC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 14:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sheesh. Climate Dynamics&#039; website is down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sheesh. Climate Dynamics&#8217; website is down.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brandon Shollenberger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333516</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brandon Shollenberger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 11:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333516</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a comment currently in moderation, but in the meantime, the basic gist was this.  The phrase &quot;e-mail attachment&quot; does not mean the file is attached to an e-mail and thus separate from the e-mail.  Instead, it is just an example of a phrase not accurately describing what it refers to (just like the greenhouse effect doesn&#039;t describe anything similar to what happens with a greenhouse).

E-mail attachments are part of the exact same message, and thus the same file, as what the UEA calls &quot;emails.&quot;  It makes no sense to split an e-mail into two parts, call one part the e-mail, and then argue the other part isn&#039;t actually part of the e-mail.

But that&#039;s what UEA is doing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a comment currently in moderation, but in the meantime, the basic gist was this.  The phrase &#8220;e-mail attachment&#8221; does not mean the file is attached to an e-mail and thus separate from the e-mail.  Instead, it is just an example of a phrase not accurately describing what it refers to (just like the greenhouse effect doesn&#8217;t describe anything similar to what happens with a greenhouse).</p>
<p>E-mail attachments are part of the exact same message, and thus the same file, as what the UEA calls &#8220;emails.&#8221;  It makes no sense to split an e-mail into two parts, call one part the e-mail, and then argue the other part isn&#8217;t actually part of the e-mail.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s what UEA is doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Shollenberger</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brandon Shollenberger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 11:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t noticed anyone else comment on a particular absurdity of this submission (forgive me if I missed it).  UEA says:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is right to say that, in 2008, Professor Briffa transferred certain information from his work PC onto a memory stick. However, the information which was transferred was limited to emails and did not include any email attachments, &lt;/blockquote&gt;

They also say Professor Acton&#039;s testimony was true.  This means UEA is actually advancing the position &lt;b&gt;e-mail attachments&lt;/b&gt; are not part of &lt;b&gt;e-mails&lt;/b&gt;.  Of course, the reality is what they call &quot;emails&quot; are not actually emails, but &lt;b&gt;parts&lt;/b&gt; of emails.  

UEA could have said Acton misspoke.  I think pretty much everybody would forgive him for saying the e-mails hadn&#039;t been deleted because he didn&#039;t consider the distinction between e-mails and the &quot;bodies&quot; of e-mails.  That&#039;s an easy mistake to make.  It would probably call into question the quality and value of his testimony, but it wouldn&#039;t require any accusation of dishonesty.

Instead, UEA is advancing an absurd position, and in the process, making untrue statements.  When they say the memory stick &quot;contains only emails,&quot; they are flat-out misrepresenting what e-mails are.  I suppose they might argue if something is attached to something else, it can&#039;t be part of that something else, but that&#039;s just silly.  No matter what word may be used for files included in e-mails, those files are encapsulated in the exact same message as the text, and that total message is the e-mail.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t noticed anyone else comment on a particular absurdity of this submission (forgive me if I missed it).  UEA says:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is right to say that, in 2008, Professor Briffa transferred certain information from his work PC onto a memory stick. However, the information which was transferred was limited to emails and did not include any email attachments, </p></blockquote>
<p>They also say Professor Acton&#8217;s testimony was true.  This means UEA is actually advancing the position <b>e-mail attachments</b> are not part of <b>e-mails</b>.  Of course, the reality is what they call &#8220;emails&#8221; are not actually emails, but <b>parts</b> of emails.  </p>
<p>UEA could have said Acton misspoke.  I think pretty much everybody would forgive him for saying the e-mails hadn&#8217;t been deleted because he didn&#8217;t consider the distinction between e-mails and the &#8220;bodies&#8221; of e-mails.  That&#8217;s an easy mistake to make.  It would probably call into question the quality and value of his testimony, but it wouldn&#8217;t require any accusation of dishonesty.</p>
<p>Instead, UEA is advancing an absurd position, and in the process, making untrue statements.  When they say the memory stick &#8220;contains only emails,&#8221; they are flat-out misrepresenting what e-mails are.  I suppose they might argue if something is attached to something else, it can&#8217;t be part of that something else, but that&#8217;s just silly.  No matter what word may be used for files included in e-mails, those files are encapsulated in the exact same message as the text, and that total message is the e-mail.</p>
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		<title>By: ZT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333488</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ZT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 02:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Briffa was the more common &#039;To:&#039; string in the CGI archive and Jones the more common &#039;To:&#039; string in CGII (though difference between the two sets is not dramatic): http://climatologyplagiarism.blogspot.com/2012/05/are-there-fingerprints-in-climategate.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Briffa was the more common &#8216;To:&#8217; string in the CGI archive and Jones the more common &#8216;To:&#8217; string in CGII (though difference between the two sets is not dramatic): <a href="http://climatologyplagiarism.blogspot.com/2012/05/are-there-fingerprints-in-climategate.html" rel="nofollow">http://climatologyplagiarism.blogspot.com/2012/05/are-there-fingerprints-in-climategate.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 20:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Disagree. Far too much complication.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disagree. Far too much complication.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ZT</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ZT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 20:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree, I suspect that there were two leakers. CGI seems Briffa-centric and CGII less so. Perhaps the first leak came about via the loaned laptop and the second via a more &#039;systems&#039; related access to email archives. Sommer (for the Russell inquiry) had access to Briffa, Jones, and Osborns&#039; email archives - though Sommer studiously reported that he managed to avoid doing anything with that access.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, I suspect that there were two leakers. CGI seems Briffa-centric and CGII less so. Perhaps the first leak came about via the loaned laptop and the second via a more &#8216;systems&#8217; related access to email archives. Sommer (for the Russell inquiry) had access to Briffa, Jones, and Osborns&#8217; email archives &#8211; though Sommer studiously reported that he managed to avoid doing anything with that access.</p>
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		<title>By: man in a barrel</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[man in a barrel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 22:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[just wondering why people seem to feel a compelling, overriding, anxious need to identify in public the &quot;leaker/hacker&quot;.  Do you want to see him/her on trial?  Would you be prepared to endure any jail sentence on his/her behalf?  Would you want to endure the publicity?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>just wondering why people seem to feel a compelling, overriding, anxious need to identify in public the &#8220;leaker/hacker&#8221;.  Do you want to see him/her on trial?  Would you be prepared to endure any jail sentence on his/her behalf?  Would you want to endure the publicity?</p>
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		<title>By: mpaul</title>
		<link>http://climateaudit.org/2012/05/09/uea-submission-to-tribunal-on-wahl-foi/#comment-333324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mpaul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 16:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateaudit.org/?p=16053#comment-333324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
but that he really has other motives, like a personal affront, loss of job (or the threat thereof), utter disgust at intellectual corruption in climate science, or all of the above.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

...or having your research funding dry up because your research isn&#039;t suitably aligned with the narrative of the Team.  One of the things we saw is that the Team, with a sideways look and a small gesture of the hand, had the power or destroy the careers of &quot;wayward&quot; scientists  -- even if those scientists specialization was only peripheral to climate science.

A few years back there was a comment over at RC (I can&#039;t find it now) by someone proportion to be the daughter of a scientists who the Team ruined. She wrote a very passionate comment denouncing the Team.  Gavin let the comment through (surprisingly) and dismissed it in his usual charming way.  My guess is that there are many scientists out there who are displeased with the antics of the Team and who have suffered because of it.

I also found the CGII cover letter a bit contrived.  It was strangely dispassionate given the cause the author claimed to support.  I would have expected something like: &quot;I can no longer sit by and watch children dying of poverty while we spend lavishly on climate conferences.  How can we proposed to spend $37 Trillion on energy technology yet ignore the true suffering that exists in many parts of the world&quot;. Instead, we got some antiseptic list of quotes: very academic, very detached.  

And finally, there is no evidence to suggest that the CG1 leaker was the same individual as the CGII leaker.  I think they were different people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
but that he really has other motives, like a personal affront, loss of job (or the threat thereof), utter disgust at intellectual corruption in climate science, or all of the above.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;or having your research funding dry up because your research isn&#8217;t suitably aligned with the narrative of the Team.  One of the things we saw is that the Team, with a sideways look and a small gesture of the hand, had the power or destroy the careers of &#8220;wayward&#8221; scientists  &#8212; even if those scientists specialization was only peripheral to climate science.</p>
<p>A few years back there was a comment over at RC (I can&#8217;t find it now) by someone proportion to be the daughter of a scientists who the Team ruined. She wrote a very passionate comment denouncing the Team.  Gavin let the comment through (surprisingly) and dismissed it in his usual charming way.  My guess is that there are many scientists out there who are displeased with the antics of the Team and who have suffered because of it.</p>
<p>I also found the CGII cover letter a bit contrived.  It was strangely dispassionate given the cause the author claimed to support.  I would have expected something like: &#8220;I can no longer sit by and watch children dying of poverty while we spend lavishly on climate conferences.  How can we proposed to spend $37 Trillion on energy technology yet ignore the true suffering that exists in many parts of the world&#8221;. Instead, we got some antiseptic list of quotes: very academic, very detached.  </p>
<p>And finally, there is no evidence to suggest that the CG1 leaker was the same individual as the CGII leaker.  I think they were different people.</p>
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